Overheard recently, an enlightening conversation between my cancer-afflicted nani and her attendant Dolly, a Christian lady. Dolly was relating the story of Christ in shuddh Hindi and at one point the following sentence occurred:
“Yeshu ki ma Kumari Maryam thi. Unhone koi ganda kaam karke Yeshu ko janam nahin diya. Woh kumaari hi rahi.”
(“Jesus’s mother was the Virgin Mary. She gave birth to him without doing any dirty work.”)
On that immaculate note, season’s greetings to you all.
What a uniquely desi version!
ReplyDeleteWhat did your Nani say?
Jai ! You always find something to caricature religion.
ReplyDeleteWhile it was funny reading this but I would like to ask one thing .
would you call this a satire, humor or just a manifestations of disrespect for religious sentiment of others ?
With all due respect to your intellect, Literary Talent and Long standing association to the Atheist School of thought.
when we make fun of people who have a different believe system than ours do we remain any less fundamentalist than them?
I doubt if if Mr.Dawkins will approve it .
Season’s greetings to you too :).
Dipali: oh, it was a long conversation. Some of what she said was unprintable, keeping in mind that she isn't particularly refined in her attitude to what she thinks of as the "lower classes", and also a very devout Hindu, not all that tolerant of others' religious beliefs. Even so, she did keep quiet and listen for the most part, and towards the end there was even a covert agreement that God is One. Relatively happy ending!
ReplyDeletePrashant: I don't know what to make of your comment. This was merely a straight transcription of something I overheard. I haven't added any commentary of my own, apart from the word "immaculate" (and anyone who finds that offensive would have to be so thin-skinned as to be in danger of imploding).
ReplyDeletewhen we make fun of people who have a different believe system than ours do we remain any less fundamentalist than them?
You know, this repeated invoking of the "atheist fundamentalist" makes little sense to me. At the very least, it's a loose and simplistic use of the word "fundamentalist". How can you meaningfully compare the two things anyway? Religious fundamentalists are capable of mass-murdering (or inciting others to mass-murder) people who don't believe in the same things they do. Atheist "fundamentalists", on the other hand, write blog posts that "make fun" of others' sentiments. Do you really want to liken the two things?
Also, consider what the word "fundamentalist" really means and then read Dawkins for a crucial distinction between the religious fundamentalist and the so-called rational "fundamentalist". It's a very big distinction, and you'll find it in The God Delusion.
(Sorry for the rambling comment, but you asked for it!)
My problem was not with the use of word "immaculate" in fact didn't even noticed it till you mentioned .
ReplyDeletewhat i find a Little odd here is that in spite of your vast knowledge of religious theology
( I got to know some good aspect of Mahabhart and other scripture thanks to jabberwock ) , all you can find to mark this Occasion (which means a lot to believers)is that conversation which was nothing more than an attempt to simplify the story of Jesus Christ for common masses .
Frankly at times we do it in science also .does that negate the complete value of science ?
As an Aethiest ( I prefer Non Believer though) from a religious family i always find that one should be a little sensitive while asserting his view point when audience consist of mixed view point.
Unless you are out on "Conversion mission" or jabberwock is strictly for atheist audience I don't see any point why you want to open that can of worms . There is no point IMHO.
I mean your believe don't require me to believe and vice -versa . so i find it odd that you acknowledged the existence /significance of religious people (Its X mas time) and only aspect you choose to highlight is their ignorance . that was a little provocative . there Faith is in GOD not in bible .
From what little i know about Dawkins and his work i think he makes NO distinction in Reasonable (rational) faith and Pure Faith (http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=qR_z85O0P2M)
But thats an altogether different discussion.
Regarding the question raised by Prashant, perhaps he detects a note of condescension in your post, which is, to be honest, apparent.
ReplyDeleteBut that doesn't make this post fundamentalist, or any less funny.
Happy holidays! :-)
@ Prashant:
ReplyDelete"when we make fun of people who have a different believe system than ours do we remain any less fundamentalist than them?"
----
In a fit of atheist-bashing zeal, you are missing the point - it has nothing to do with religion you see...
Dolly seems to me to be an innocent brain-washed "anti-sex" fundamentalist as she seems to imply it to be a "dirty" deed! :P
It sure is a different believe system than ours - but we definitely cannot be termed as pro-sex "fundamentalist" ;)
Prashant, which side of the fence do you sit on?
Jokes apart, religion today is all that it was not meant to be and seems to be stretching its shelf-life! It was meant to guide people to lead a good life – but today, it is merely reduced to a cause for grief and pain to mankind. If leading a good life is the point – it can very well be done without the archaic “belief systems” peddled by religious salesmen who are as human and flawed as you or I.
Not trying to impose a view (that would be fundamentalist!) but just trying to present it to you - it is upto you to wake up, smell the coffee and if you don't like it... go back to sleep!
- Ankur
Unless you are out on "Conversion mission" or jabberwock is strictly for atheist audience I don't see any point why you want to open that can of worms . There is no point IMHO.
ReplyDeletePrashant: the "point" can simply be to share something I heard, which I thought funny. No "conversion mission" here, believe me. I'm much too pragmatic to think that I'm ever going to be able to "convert" anyone to atheism. Even a high-profile militant atheist like Dawkins doesn't seriously expect to achieve that.
That said, obviously I'm going to filter the things I hear and see through my own perspective - a perspective that doesn't think of religion or religious sentiments as being automatically deserving of respect. That's probably where our points of view diverge, which could be why you're so put off by this post.
Incidentally, I am also an atheist from a religious family, and the three people I care for/"respect" the most are all believers - but that isn't going to stop me making light, jokey references to religion (or to atheism for that matter, if I come across something funny about it).
Regarding the question raised by Prashant, perhaps he detects a note of condescension in your post, which is, to be honest, apparent. But that doesn't make this post fundamentalist, or any less funny.
Ajay: thanks. But honestly, even that note of condescension wasn't intended in this post. Any subconscious condescension here would have been towards the perception of sex as something "dirty".
Ankur: thanks for that comment.
I don't find any thing to get worked up about in this incident. It kind of made me warm and fuzzy about the secular nature of India and the existence of various religions here on hearing about your maid relating the story of Christ calling him Yeshu and Mary as Kumari Maryam.
ReplyDeletePrashant: not trying to turn this into an extended argument, but just another observation. One reason why I was puzzled by your original comment is this: if you were going to be offended by any of my religion-oriented posts, I would think there are many better candidates among the earlier ones. You say "I got to know some good aspects of Mahabharat and other scripture thanks to jabberwock" and refer to this as "religious theology", but in fact I've always made it clear that I don't think of the Mahabharata in religious terms at all. The religious/supernatural aspects of the epic have usually been a subject of parody for me, and I've been cheerfully irreverent about the Gods in earlier posts - much more so than in this one. So why the sudden protectiveness towards Yeshu and Kumaari Maryam? Especially when I haven't said anything remotely derogatory about them.
ReplyDelete"So why the sudden protectiveness towards Yeshu and Kumaari Maryam? Especially when I haven't said anything remotely derogatory about them."
ReplyDelete----------------------------------
Oh no... could this be explained with that dreaded word... "pseudo-secularism" ??? (shudder!shudder!)
- Ankur
"The whole world is a couple of drinks behind."
ReplyDeleteEveryone, please order your favorite ones, and bottoms up.
Greetings and wishes.
@Jai : Use of term Theology might be wrong but Those post presented an alternate interpretation of those text . its like finding mahabhart in Literature section of library instead of Mythology or religion section . I learned immensely from them. specially your post about "Ka" and Amir Hamza . they were well thought out . unfortunately same could not be said about this post.
ReplyDeletemaking such remark specially in context of a festival is like telling a women how ugly/un-educated she is on her wedding day . you might have the freedom to say that but I guess restraint is more appropriate .
for the record there is no personal affinity toward Yeshu . i would have said same thing if you make a commentary on hindu fest under such context .
@Ankur : Throwing Flaimbait like pseudo secularism is noway to have a meaningful discussion. so I request you to Please shut up .
[Now Go ahead call me Anti Free Speech]
And I thought this post was just plain funny. Also a little touching - the last time I heard of copulation as 'ganda kaam' was when we were little children in a playground on a hot summer afternoon...
ReplyDelete@ prashant:
ReplyDeletewould you call this a satire, humor or just a manifestations of disrespect for religious sentiment of others ?
i apologise for jumping on you too!
but religion and the kind of stunted understanding that we have, with it's burden of guilt and fear (that usually pass off as 'belief' or 'faith') invites ridicule. and satire, if jai intended this to be one (he's drawing no conclusions in the post) is the gentlest way, as opposed to torching a church or building concentration camps, to challenge the intentions and ideas that human beings have and informing them that there are other possibilities.
and it's not Dolly's understanding of religion that i find funny, it's her understanding of sex.
"religion and the kind of stunted understanding that we have, with it's burden of guilt and fear (that usually pass off as 'belief' or 'faith')"
ReplyDeleteWell that's true but have you tried to investigate Why ? IMHO its because the moment any view point gains mainstream acceptance , majority of people suspend the critical thinking , stop examining the premises and take it as gospel .
the moment you moment you do that you are asking for guilt,fear and many such thing.
When your knee has stopped jerking you might notice that religion don't have a monopoly over this . any system and I mean ANY system where people stop applying their mind guilt and fear takes over .
Look at totalitarian regime of communist countries .They don't have religion I doubt their people are living in any guilt free adobe.
and the day [ if ever] atheism become majority's view point you will see same thing here also.
you might find it funny but its about time dawkins write "Saving atheism from Atheist" and explain a framework for society where atheism is Majority . because I know most of them will not listen to anyone else.
PS: I recommend you read "Lucifer Effect" by Dr. Phillip Zimbardo . he has explained it in great detail .its not a religious book [if that make it easy for you ]
I'm a bit tired of people misunderstanding the intent of your posts. I guess that is only to be expected, given the extensive readership you enjoy. Jitne log, utni batein!:P
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, I'm sure there is an equal number of people amongst the umpteen "log" who see the humour AND the intent. So, please continue to be as delightfully irreverant..and merry christmas!!
Prashant: clarifying for the last time that this post was NOT written to poke fun (even gently) at poor Dolly, who has played a major role in keeping our household together (and looking after my grandmother, who is a very difficult and unpleasant patient) in the last few months, and for whom I feel nothing but gratitude and sympathy. If you saw it as being judgemental/mocking, may I politely suggest that that's your cross to bear. When you compare this post to "telling a women how ugly/un-educated she is on her wedding day", my reaction is to reread the thing and then wonder which parallel-universe post you've read, which has offended you so much. (Just by the way, let me assure you that there's no chance of Dolly reading this blog.)
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, when I wrote this, I wasn't thinking about the "religious" aspect at all. I was thinking 1) I've never heard the story told in quite that way before, and 2) Sex as "ganda kaam", which is more a reflection of the attitude to sex prevalent in large swathes of Indian society (where the question of women enjoying the act doesn't arise - they are simply meant to be baby-producing machines/tools for the man's enjoyment, and it's seen as something for them to be ashamed of).
Also, being quite nihilistic in some ways, in essence I don't disagree with the idea that people will always find ways to suspend critical thinking/get fanatical about their views/find reasons to kill each other - even if religion had never existed. But why should that dissuade anyone from making fun of the many, many aspects of religion and faith that are just crying out to be mocked?
Radhika: thanks. I avoid responding to trolls (unless it's to make fun of them!), but when the misunderstanding comes from a long-time reader/commenter like Prashant, I try to engage with it and carry the discussion as far as it can go. Also depending on how much time/energy I have, of course!
Shiny tiny satellite: you're giving me way too much importance as a satirist/idea-challenger, but thanks!
"Immaculate note"
ReplyDeleteHa! Nice to see you at it again, Jai....amusing to see this light-hearted post turn into a full fledged rant-magnet for the pontiffs of the blogosphere....
Total funeeness :)) Merry Xmas to u too Jai
ReplyDeleteI am not a well read person(although, I read this blog regularly)...funny to hear something like a fundamentalist atheist.
ReplyDeleteThanks Jai, not only are your posts entertaining, but also comments that follow are interesting to read.
How does such a cute post morph into a debate about Dawkins? Some people can start arguing over anything I guess.
ReplyDeleteMerry Christmas and Happy New Year Jai. Please keep your sense of humor alive next year, keeps our lives entertained !
Immaculate conception...
ReplyDeletePrashant: Take it easy...even if Jai was being condescending and satirical (which I don't think he was doing at least in this post), its his perspective boss. What one says or hears is always filtered (as jai wrote) thru the prism of one's perspective. This season have a few rounds of Old Monk and have a great holiday season and all that.
The Green Plant is the one true God...
Season's greetings and Cheers,
Rahul
I believe Jai, that so many comments on this piece points to the fact that your blog is read and also respected by many. Everybody has different beliefs and the point is many posts lead to a lot of debate , which in the end is enjoyable.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the post I enjoyed it , for me it is good humour without any religious overtones.
even if Jai was being condescending and satirical, its his perspective boss. What one says or hears is always filtered (as jai wrote) thru the prism of one's perspective.
ReplyDeleteReadnRyte: but in that case Prashant (or anyone else) is equally entitled to filter what I've written through his perspective and then react accordingly. No problem with that. Personally, what I'm more concerned about is the misunderstanding of the tone/intention of the post. Once that happens, the comments are guaranteed to go off on a tangent.