tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post828142970744757156..comments2024-03-27T14:57:37.031+05:30Comments on Jabberwock: The movie star as auteurJabberwockhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-17791886140554537692012-03-19T07:47:16.525+05:302012-03-19T07:47:16.525+05:30I had that nagging doubt about Dabangg. The scene ...I had that nagging doubt about Dabangg. The scene where the Dad kills himself was really off key. <br /><br />While watching it on TV at home, one of the family members who is usually not a critical viewer claimed 'Ye samajh mein nahi aya'. Why the heck did he have to kill himself in order to get his daughter married. There was a veneer of logic but it was really flimsy.thequarkhttp://quarklore.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-46293159642149766472012-03-06T22:52:13.687+05:302012-03-06T22:52:13.687+05:30Anon: Not sure if I'm understood right.
When ...Anon: Not sure if I'm understood right.<br /><br />When I talked about the Old masters being commercial film makers, I was referring to them being a part of the Hollywood establishment often working under severe constraints imposed by the producers, financiers and the moral police. They inhabited the real world of commerce.<br /><br />An Abbas Kiarostami is not nearly subject to as many commercial pressures.<br /><br />Also when I talked about the "modern masters being unknown", I was making a relative statement. The best cinema of today no longer comes out of Hollywood. The commercial establishment today targets the teen market and the average output is largely forgettable. Cinema of artistic worth emanates from places like Iran or East Asia, many of whose directors are followed mainly by film buffs outside their respective countries and NOT by the mass audience. Therein lies the difference between old masters like Ford and Hawks and the "modern masters" with more limited appeal.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-10487998687561271762012-03-06T13:43:11.021+05:302012-03-06T13:43:11.021+05:30I haven't watched enough of modern cinema to c...<i>I haven't watched enough of modern cinema to counter your extremely categorical statement. Nor am I sure if you've watched enough of the "old masters" to say the same.</i><br /><br />I say/write only what I know. I will not make a similar statement about poetry, painting or music. My statement looking "categorical"...any new idea will have the same problem. Plus we need to look beyond the "old is good" nostalgia which clouds the judgment of many.<br /><br /><i>The Old masters were commercial film makers.</i><br /><br />I have to disagree. I do not know what is "commercial" or "not commercial". And I don't know how this criteria is valid for a filmmaker other than a direct correlation with his/her bank statement?<br /><br />If Hitchcock is remembered, thats not because he was "more commercial" than Cukor or Stevens. 'La Dolce Vita' was a box office hit because of the controversy with Catholic church. I don't think Fellini is a popular name anywhere. <br /><br />The general populace will not know the filmmakers. They may know the films. And they will always remember the stars or actors. People remember a Cary Grant...but who remembers who Directed his films? Does anyone remember Terence Young? He was very "commercial"!<br /><br />How many fans of "Transformers" will know the name of the Director?<br /><br /><i>The Modern masters in contrast are practically unknown! </i><br /><br />This is a very sweeping statement which does not make sense in any form of art. Van Gogh sold only one of his paintings in his life time. That does not diminish his worth. <br /><br />The modern masters will remain unknown as long as you shut your eyes and ears to anything other than the black and white world.<br /><br />And we are living in an age where a Chang-dong Lee is available at our fingertips...but the onus is on us to look. <br /><br /><i>You can create the finest art in the world. But it's not going to last if there's no one to behold and remember it.</i><br /><br />I agree wholeheartedly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-29891141875771125202012-03-06T10:57:24.952+05:302012-03-06T10:57:24.952+05:30But when I look at some of the older greats in cin...<i>But when I look at some of the older greats in cinema and the new masters, I feel many of the older generation is outdated. I feel the modern masters are "way ahead" in every way</i><br /><br />Don't want to drag on this debate. But one last comment. I haven't watched enough of modern cinema to counter your extremely categorical statement. Nor am I sure if you've watched enough of the "old masters" to say the same.<br /><br />But even if I were to assume that you're right about the modern masters being "better", the fact remains - <br /><br />The Old masters were commercial film makers. The finest artists in Hollywood between the 20s and 70s enjoyed a mass following (many of them were international icons). So their art was universal in appeal and tangibly influenced many lives. People discuss <i>Psycho</i> and <i>Rebel without a Cause</i> all around the world over 50 years after their release.<br /><br />The Modern masters in contrast are practically unknown! The best cinema of today is created outside the commercial establishment. The finest artists no longer have access to the star power which can universalise the appeal of their art. This brings us back to the original subject of the post. By shunning the movie star, the serious "artists" of today have imposed limits on their accessibility.<br /><br />You can create the finest art in the world. But it's not going to last if there's no one to behold and remember it.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-42114788533677849432012-03-05T10:15:11.833+05:302012-03-05T10:15:11.833+05:30@ Shrikant and Jabberwock...
A quick addition and...@ Shrikant and Jabberwock...<br /><br />A quick addition and lets conclude...<br /><br />George Cukor is Hollywood. Thats why we know of him. (I am not implying Hollywood is good or bad - but only as a cultural signifier with a great marketing machine.)<br /><br />There are versions of "It could happen to you" in every cinema culture. If you take the last hundred years of Hong Kong films, we will find similar films with perceptions into human nature - here is the brochure to find the Hong Kong versions of Cukor and Stevens - http://www.lcsd.gov.hk/CE/CulturalService/filmprog/promo/2011ms100/100_Must_See_Booklet.pdf<br /><br />About Kurosawa - any filmmaker making 20 or more films will have some real stinkers. Still the stinkers will have a stamp of originality. I have not seen his version of "The Idiot" - so I cannot comment on the film. <br /><br /><i>In cinema, as in any other form, what has happened before provides a necessary foundation for subsequent developments, as do of course advances in technology. It's a little like saying that today's tennis players are automatically superior to Bill Tilden, Pancho Gonzales etc. </i><br /><br />I have to disagree with the analogy. If you are considering cinema as an art form, then you have to use painting or music and look at how cinema evolved. Not Tennis. <br /><br />Look at Van Gogh and Jackson Pollack, I do not see any difference (I am not talking about their style, but their originality.) For me both belong to the past...it does not matter the former was in 1800's and the later in the recent past. <br /><br />But when I look at some of the older greats in cinema and the new masters, I feel many of the older generation is outdated. I feel the modern masters are "way ahead" in every way. <br /><br />Cinema is only 100 or more years old - as an art form it is a very young medium. Second, the modern masters I mentioned are not taking the craft further by technological developments or by modern devices - a good example are the films of Chang-dong Lee you will not find any cinematic device which was unavailable to a filmmaker in the 1950's. I do not even remember a "dissolve" in his films.<br /><br />More important...consider some of the beautiful Iranian films from the 80's onwards. From a personal experience of interacting with some of the filmmakers, I know they do not "watch films", as it may corrupt their vision. This list includes many of the modern Iranian greats. <br /><br />I would consider this as a silly idea as you are missing a lot of beautiful films. But I can see the point. <br /><br />How would a "foundation laid by previous films" apply in their case? <br /><br />Take the latest Abbas Kiorastami film "Certified Copy" - far more perceptive than anything I have seen till date.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-70402610729332325222012-03-04T19:19:12.799+05:302012-03-04T19:19:12.799+05:30In cinema, as in any other form, what has happened...<i>In cinema, as in any other form, what has happened before provides a necessary foundation for subsequent developments, as do of course advances in technology. It's a little like saying that today's tennis players are automatically superior to Bill Tilden, Pancho Gonzales etc</i><br /><br />Jai: Very much agree. You're essentially echoing Newton's famous "We all stand on the shoulders of giants" line. But even going beyond that line of argument, it is possible to argue that the best works of Cukor (a supposed journeyman director of yesteryear) stand up well with anything in mainstream modern cinema even without making any allowances for the differences in eras.<br /><br />If one has to make allowances then it would mean the director hasn't aged very well. But that definitely isn't the case with the best work of the old masters.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-14259074358596015872012-03-04T19:08:27.702+05:302012-03-04T19:08:27.702+05:30By the way this discussion prompted me to check ou...By the way this discussion prompted me to check out this <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9cet2Yjysw" rel="nofollow">Cukor movie</a> on youtube.<br /><br /><i>It Should Happen to you</i> is nobody's idea of great art as far as I know. But it should be. This isn't even one of Cukor's better known movies. Yet it's a remarkably perceptive film full of throwaway insights into human nature. Cukor is magnificent. He elicits one of the great performances of all time from a ridiculously underrated starlet. Never does his style detract from the film's narrative. To my mind, this is one of the great accomplishments of 50s Hollywood. Yet very few have heard of this film. Not even several Hollywood enthusiasts.<br /><br />A pity.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-48886617755994101812012-03-04T13:09:59.380+05:302012-03-04T13:09:59.380+05:30Shrikanth, Anon: this is a most interesting discus...Shrikanth, Anon: this is a most interesting discussion, thanks. I'd prefer to stay out of it for now since I'm tremendously pressed for time these days (which also partly explains the sketchiness of the original post). I'll say this though: while I've had several differences of opinion with Shrikanth over the years, on the whole I'm a little more with him on this particular side of the discussion. (Which is not to pick sides or to say that we are even 1 percent of the way to having had a comprehensive discussion on this subject.)<br /><br />Btw, completely disagree with the idea that Cukor and Stevens didn't make any great films, or that the modern masters can in some overriding way be rated higher than the older masters. (This isn't a fair or meaningful comparison to begin with. In cinema, as in any other form, what has happened before provides a necessary foundation for subsequent developments, as do of course advances in technology. It's a little like saying that today's tennis players are automatically superior to Bill Tilden, Pancho Gonzales etc.)<br /><br />Also, why is "the best way to judge a great filmmaker to look at their worst films"? And even if it was, why would <i>High and Low</i> (a pretty good Kurosawa film) fit in this debate? Try judging Kurosawa by the standards of, say, his adaptation of Dostoevsky's <i>The Idiot</i> and you'd probably have to conclude that he was a mediocre director!<br /><br />Speaking of idiots, did I say a few paras up that I was going to stay out of this discussion? Stupid me!Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-71258981009079064042012-03-04T12:03:25.507+05:302012-03-04T12:03:25.507+05:30Minor correction to my preceding post - "I a...Minor correction to my preceding post - "I am talking about mediocre in the George Cukor, George Stevens sense..."<br /><br />I agree with the critical disdain for commercial culture. But it is changing. Even mainstream critics are much more aware of non-mainstream films and vice versa. A good sign are Oscars - the films which are winning now are not traditionally box office hits. <br /><br />Every feature film is commercial...a golden rule which critics do not understand.<br /><br />I agree with your take on Rashoman...a film I never warmed up to. But filmschool graduates salivate over Tarkovsky, not Kurosawa. <br /><br />In the 21st century, a command over faculties like mis-en-scene or montage is a given for any competent director. The guy who made "Tera Naal Love Ho Gaya" can do a competent mis-en-scene". "Shootout at Ghatkopar" will have a competent montage sequence. <br /><br />What matters is only what goes in. <br /><br />Cinema is at a crossroads. The filmmakers chances of re-inventing in the two hour duration are over. Whatever you think of was already done.<br /><br />What a filmmaker can do is "explore themes". And tweak the existing styles making sure you hide the influences of the original. <br /><br />Otherwise make the film deeply personal. Then it will be unique. But to make the film deeply personal you need to contemplate, travel, fall in love, kill someone, start or stop a war etc.<br /><br />The Israeli film "Lebanon" is the second type - the personal war film. Unique. "Bullhead" - the film which should have won the Best Foreign Picture at Oscars is another example.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-72289106495508111322012-03-04T11:34:36.322+05:302012-03-04T11:34:36.322+05:30Please take a look at the state of novel...http://...Please take a look at the state of novel...http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/great-american-novel_630022.html?nopager=1<br /><br />I guess a similar argument can be made about films and filmmakers. Most of what we herald is mediocre. <br /><br />I am not talking about mediocre in the conventional sense - Raj Kumar Hirani will be great/good for Hindi the population of Hindi cinema watchers. <br /><br />I am not talking about mediocre in the George Cukor, George Stevens, Hrishikesh Mukherjee sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-44725797398913818812012-03-04T11:30:26.886+05:302012-03-04T11:30:26.886+05:30George Cukor and George Stevens are already forgot...<i>George Cukor and George Stevens are already forgotten. They might have made good films...thats it. We are talking about great films</i><br /><br />We are made to have this opinion by the critical establishment that looks down upon "commercial culture".<br /><br />George Stevens and Cukor even in their weaker films exhibit a command over <i>mise en scene</i> that is missing in many of Bergman's films. Cary Grant's pleading in front of the judge in <i>Penny Serenade</i> or Katherine Hepburn hosting her beau to a dinner in <i>Alice Adams</i> are equal to anything I've seen in the art classics of a Ray or a Bergman!<br /><br />Kurosawa's <i>Rashomon</i> in my book is a rather clumsy film whose reputation precedes it thus preventing fans from evaluating it in more objective light.<br /><br />The idea here is not to disparage the holy cows that are worshipped in film schools. Nevertheless it's important that we develop a more inclusive understanding of art and refuse to get swayed by the critics' jaudinced view of what constitutes "high art".shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-85171064009254279752012-03-04T11:13:36.160+05:302012-03-04T11:13:36.160+05:30@ Shrikanth
The circles need to be concentric. El...@ Shrikanth<br /><br />The circles need to be concentric. Else Priyadarshan and Subhash Ghai and even Ramsay Brothers will be auteurs. Then the "auteur" theory does not make sense. <br /><br />"Thoroughbred Professional" - what does that term denote? Is it someone who comes to the sets dot on time, well dressed, not drunk and has a commanding voice while bellowing "start", "action" and "cut"? <br /><br />George Cukor and George Stevens are already forgotten. They might have made good films...thats it. We are talking about great films. The best way to judge a great film maker is to look at their worst films...Hrikesh Mukherjee is a great example...the throughbred professional from India...the one who is kind, liberal to a fault, does not attack kitten, does not molest girls or boys etc. A through gentleman. The Chetan Bhagat of cinema. <br /><br />Kurosawa is great...take a look at "High and Low" - one of his unheralded films. The reason "High and Low" is unheralded is simple - that man made far greater films in his career. So a very good film like "High and Low" is not remembered. <br /><br />I agree with your definition of "Economy of expression".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-2938030807901427972012-03-04T11:07:55.387+05:302012-03-04T11:07:55.387+05:30Which takes us to the one hundred rupee question.....<i>Which takes us to the one hundred rupee question...is cinema really art? </i><br /><br />The answer to that is an unqualified yes. People have been ambivalent about regarding cinema as art because it happens to be the most commercial and the most accessible of all art forms. That doesn't sit well with the intellectuals you see, as many of them believe commerce and art are unlikely bedfellows.<br /><br />Even the critics in the film establishment are ambivalent about cinema's status. David Thomson wondered in his book whether the unsophisticated and arriviste Chaplin and Griffith are indeed worthy of comparison with their contemporaries - Henry James and Theodore Drieser! <br /><br />Hence there's this tendency to associate high art in the cinema with directors who are commercially not as successful - like Welles or Keaton, while being condescending towards their more successful colleagues.<br /><br />Citizen Kane is no doubt a great film. But to my mind, the Oscar winner of that year - <i>How Green was my Valley</i> is just as special in its own way! Sadly it's forgotten today. Why? Possibly because it was a creation of the commercially successful "establishment" and not an artistic eccentric like Welles.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-63080934408591816332012-03-04T10:56:35.148+05:302012-03-04T10:56:35.148+05:30Anon: All I said was that Sarris' circles prov...Anon: All I said was that Sarris' circles provide a useful framework. Those circles are not necessarily concentric as many people imagine. In my view they are overlapping circles!<br /><br />So a director could be a part of the "Sensibility" circle without necessarily being someone who is particularly proficient or versatile technically. Satyajit Ray and Ingmar Bergman immediately come to mind.<br /><br />There are others like George Stevens and George Cukor - thoroughbred professionals with a versatile proven record across genres but without the sophisticated sensibility you associate with the likes of Ray or Bergman.<br /><br />And then you've that rare breed - directors who fit into each of the circles comfortably. This stratified zone includes the veritable giants - Hitchcock, Scorsese, Welles, Altman among others.<br /><br />By the way, you simplified my take on "Economy of expression" being an unqualified virtue. It does not necessarily always imply the spare visual style of an Ozu. Hitchcock's intense montage in Rear Window when Raymond Burr has a tussle with Stewart is also quite economical in its own way!shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-13213084076886755072012-03-03T22:30:25.946+05:302012-03-03T22:30:25.946+05:30@ Shrikanth
Questions to Shrikanth:
What is a &...@ Shrikanth<br /><br />Questions to Shrikanth: <br /><br />What is a "badly made film"? <br /><br />There are hundreds of examples in cinema and television where the production values were shoddy but the film/television content was brilliant, great or beautiful. Some of the best works of auteurs have zero production value in the traditional sense. What matters is "what the story is", and "how the story is told". PATHER PANCHALI is the prime example. <br /><br />Lets not include technical proficiency in the conventional sense as a sign of auteur - if Andrew Sarris made such a requisite, then Andrew Sarris is wrong. And he has to be corrected. <br /><br />What is a unique "visual style" which can denote an auteur at work? <br /><br />A hyperkinetic montage of a good action sequence is a unique visual style. What Ozu has done is at the other extreme. Both are unique. "Economy of expression" depends on the context - an opposite is also art. <br /><br />An intelligent filmmaker will know how to use the style to his advantage...very good example are the action sequences of "Carlos" - Oliver Assayas easily beats specialist action directors. <br /><br />Hence the visual style as a sign of auteur is dicey at best. <br /><br />Sensibility and messages are two different entities. A good film does not need a message. I understand Andrew Sarris was not meaning "message" in the traditional sense, but an overall vision about life, society, solar system, animals or universe. <br /><br />But a filmmaker definitely needs a sensibility.<br /><br />Overall the way we classify and understand cinema needs to be reworked. Many of the old masters are not that great when compared to some of the modern masters - I would put Korean Director Chang-dong Lee above many of the older greats. This is not to say the older greats were bad...but to say the modern ones are going a few steps ahead. <br /><br />And this can happen only in cinema...no other art form can accomodate such a contradiction. <br /><br />Which takes us to the one hundred rupee question...is cinema really art? <br /><br />I would like to belive so. But it is indeed a serious question. <br /><br />@ Jabberwock<br /><br />I agree...this is a topic which needs a thread of its own. But we may not find such a thread...so lets use what we have. <br /><br />If today a young Amitabh Bachachan fan watches Anand for the first time, he/her will have a different perception about the film because Bachachan is a big film star. Am I right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-69331210816474045122012-03-03T16:56:11.851+05:302012-03-03T16:56:11.851+05:30Anon: The more things change the more they remain ...Anon: The more things change the more they remain the same.<br /><br />You talk of Sarris' circles not being relevant anymore. I beg to differ. I think they do provide a useful framework for evaluating creative talents in filmmaking.<br /><br />Regarding your points:<br />Technical competence : I disagree with the view that it is "available to everyone" today. There is no shortage of badly made movies and television with poor production values around us. If anything, production values are less revered in this age than they were during the studio era's zenith.<br /><br />Visual style: Let's not succumb to the tendency of inverse snobs to claim that anything and everything can constitute a visual style. Economy of expression is always an artistic virtue, be it DW Griffith's day or the new millenium. Ofcourse there are philosophical debates on the suitability of different visual styles - be it the montage-driven style of a Hitchcock or the long-take approach of a Renoir or a Hawks.<br /><br />While one mustn't be dogmatic in this regard, one must also guard against the "anything goes" culture that attempts to legitimize badly made films as art.<br /><br />Sensibility: No matter how good a technician you are, you cannot call yourself an artist if you are bereft of sensibilities. You talked disparagingly of "messages". But the whole purpose of art is to say something. It doesn't have to be a grotesquely overt statement in the style of an Aamir Khan. But any great film ought to make intelligent viewing. In the absence of ideas, films cease to be serious stuff.<br /><br />So each of Sarris' circles are very much relevant. Also the interactions between the circles is very important. A passage of a certain film may be visually enthralling yet difficult to endure if the sensibility associated with it is bereft of mature intelligence! Eg - Some of the sequences of Slumdog Millionaire are technically very good but unendurable as the film does not appeal to mature adult sensibilities.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-15097632081883605462012-03-03T13:38:00.209+05:302012-03-03T13:38:00.209+05:30If Alaap is a decent film and Bachchan was convinc...<i>If Alaap is a decent film and Bachchan was convincing as the lead while playing against the type, then what "auteur" contribution did Bachachan bring to the film? </i><br /><br />Anon: part of my point was that Amitabh's playing against type (at a time when his basic star persona had been established and fixed in the audience's mind) was part of the reason the film didn't work for most viewers. (I think it may have had a better chance of finding a small, interested audience today, in the age of multiplexes and DVDs.) <i>Anand</i> was a different matter - it was made before that star persona was created. <br /><br />You make some good points in your comment (especially that bit about visual style being less relevant today than it was during the great debates of the 1960s), but like I've already said a tedious number of times in this thread, this is a much longer and more complex subject than can be dealt with in this space. And because the post itself was an only slightly extended version of a 600-word column I write, it's likely that I haven't been able to convey most of my thoughts on this subject (or even convey what I think "auteur" or "semi-auteur" might mean in various contexts - the word has too often been misused or abused anyway).<br /><br />But of course, it's very stimulating to discuss this subject - and hopefully supplement that discussion with readings of more indepth essays such as the ones by Wood and Perkins.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-9381615685674484442012-03-03T11:31:42.059+05:302012-03-03T11:31:42.059+05:30@ Pessimist Fool...
Thank you.
If Alaap is a de...@ Pessimist Fool...<br /><br />Thank you. <br /><br />If Alaap is a decent film and Bachachan was convincing as the lead while playing against the type, then what "auteur" contribution did Bachachan bring to the film? <br /><br />Why is Anand considered successful? One can argue Anand had Rajesh Khanna...still Amitabh was very convincing as the doctor and we saw the actor, not the star. <br /><br />Auteur theory makes sense only for a Director - more than a Director, we should use Filmmaker. The three points Andrew Sarris describes are outdated. They need to be reworked. Technical competence is available to anyone. Visual style does not make sense in a world saturated with every imaginable visual style, cinema is not for message - Western Union, Google and Post Office is for message. <br /><br />The identifiers for the signs of an auteur in the 21st century follows - <br />1. A particular style - it could be a markedly unique way the story is told. Priyadarshan and Michael Bay are not auteurs though they have a style. (If Priyadarhan is an author then my cow is an author for how she shits.)<br />2. Use of leitmotifs. We should be able to identify the leitmotifs - it could be locations, actors, dialogues etc.<br />3. Adherence to certain themes.<br /><br />To an extent only Writer-Directors can be considered as true auteurs. I do not know how important this creteria was in Andrew Sarris definition...but for me it makes sense.<br /><br />This is an important forum...I hope film theorists, critics or PhD wannabees take a further look at my opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-16176524207477515422012-03-03T00:43:11.025+05:302012-03-03T00:43:11.025+05:30@ anon - Alaap is a beautiful film, slightly dated...@ anon - Alaap is a beautiful film, slightly dated though. But I loved it. Really good performance by AB. I love seeing him in Hrishikesh Mukherjee's films. He just looks normal and more human. Om Prakash as his father is also very good. Rekha is dull as she was in many films I think. Asrani did his due. Look at the pain such directors took. AB plays a character who wants to learn singing. So his teacher's voice is actually of a classical singer's. And whenever she sings, at least I felt this is something else. Can't even imagine what this movie would have been in the hands of a lesser director and that pretty much explains why it was a flop. Apologies, you asked Jai and I jumped in...Pessimist Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06057153008708242962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-25732562230870040562012-03-01T15:28:54.762+05:302012-03-01T15:28:54.762+05:30Amitabh made brave attempts at playing against typ...<i>Amitabh made brave attempts at playing against type in films like Alaap and later Main Azaad Hoon (and for what it's worth, I don't think there was anything wrong with those performances), but for many viewers the existing persona was simply too strong to permit the required suspension of disbelief. </i><br /><br />So what happened to Alaap and Main Azaad Hoon (I have not seen either, and not too many films of AB, so I have no idea.) <br /><br />Were Alaap and Main Azaad Hoon commercial failures because the suspension of disbelief did not occur? Or were they simply bad films without the simplistic & formulaic devices - villains, item numbers, "meri paas maa hein" dialogs etc. which will give a better box office collection irrespective of the quality of the film?<br /><br />When I saw North By Northwest as a kid I had no idea about Cary Grant. I saw it a few weeks back after knowing Cary Grant. The effect was the same. A beautiful film. Somehow Cary Grant did not matter...because it was Hitchcock.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-71224525909353284262012-03-01T12:24:20.719+05:302012-03-01T12:24:20.719+05:30The golden rule we have to remember is "a goo...<i>The golden rule we have to remember is "a good actor can play any character."</i><br /><br />Anon: again, this is a simplistic idea. While discussing it, one has to keep in mind the relationship that forms between a prominent star-personality and his audience. Amitabh made brave attempts at playing against type in films like <i>Alaap</i> and later <i>Main Azaad Hoon</i> (and for what it's worth, I don't think there was anything wrong with those performances), but for many viewers the existing persona was simply too strong to permit the required suspension of disbelief. (Even at age 14, I couldn't buy the idea of Amitabh playing Everyman in <i>Main Azaad Hoon</i>.) Actors (especially star-actors) who play a number of roles in widely seen films don't operate in a vacuum each time they play a new character.<br /><br />That said, I take your point about seeing <i>Vertigo</i> without having any past associations with Stewart or Grant. At any rate, it makes your experience significantly different from that of a viewer who comes to these films already knowing a lot about these actors.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-48137219604919989982012-03-01T11:59:11.523+05:302012-03-01T11:59:11.523+05:30Interesting post Jai. I'd love to see what the...Interesting post Jai. I'd love to see what the original/darker script of Dabangg would have turned out like... The protagonist's name would certainly not have been Chulbul, for one :)<br /><br />Bimal Roy and Ray are two towering auteurs of Indian cinema. Even Manoj Kumar is an interesting auteur, albeit hat ke.Manreet Sodhi Someshwarhttp://the-long-walk-home.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-7327962491400346022012-03-01T11:46:49.695+05:302012-03-01T11:46:49.695+05:30If the lead had been played by Cary Grant instead ...<i>If the lead had been played by Cary Grant instead of Jimmy Stewart - because Grant's persona is built around locating the humour in even a dark and dramatic situation.</i><br /><br />I saw Vertigo for the first time when I had no idea about Cary Grant or James Stewart. And I do not think any of the established screen persona of James Stewart colored my perception of the film. <br /><br />Even if Scottie was played by Cary Grant, Hitchcock would have easily made him play against his type. <br /><br />If Stewart was replaced by Grant will not make a big difference to Vertigo. <br /><br />The golden rule we have to remember is "a good actor can play any character."<br /><br />Also there is no difference between Chaplin the Director and Chaplin the Actor. So the theory of a star who can be an auteur cannot be applied to Chaplin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-21541328942652091162012-03-01T11:39:26.239+05:302012-03-01T11:39:26.239+05:30Taking off from where Gradwolf has left off, I thi...Taking off from where Gradwolf has left off, I think the trend is far stronger in the southern states. Vijay is an obvious example, so are Vijaykanth or Chiranjeevi. Or Rajinikanth in "Baba" (which, to be fair to him, he co-wrote).<br /><br />Another example is how the serious "Manichitratazhu" in Malayalam became the quintessential Rajini movie in "Chandramukhi" - the seriousness was replaced with camp, hero-worship...<br /><br />That said, the Tamil industry has always had its share of auteur directors - Balachander, Balu Mahendra, Bharathiraaja, Mani Ratnam...aandthirtyeightshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00644980602293705853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-76552381351994413712012-03-01T10:45:32.323+05:302012-03-01T10:45:32.323+05:30"So invariably the actor's influence on t..."So invariably the actor's influence on the film is mostly unintended"<br /><br />That depends on the industry, or it doesn't? I am not sure but at least in India, Bollywood and the other regional mainstream films, big stars have (or had?) tremendous influence on common tropes(that is not much different from the auteur theory) in their films. Like some unambitious but mass pulling actor like Vijay - that name again - in Tamil is known to give DVDs of his earlier films to directors to employ some of his trademark character traits. Can it be ruled out that something like this was employed by the Bachchan Vijay of 70s. I understand where a Stewart or Grant would come from, but I am just thinking if the industry based dynamics distinguish how it works. Also, I am not sure if time can be considered. Something that just worked at a particular time, say a decade, could have been reused for those reasons. Say, Yash Chopra of 70s and the 90s. Depends on what (themes, subjects) you qualify to be under auteur theory and what not I think.Gradwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07031246793161524667noreply@blogger.com