tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post7813462387968995213..comments2024-03-27T14:57:37.031+05:30Comments on Jabberwock: A few thoughts on Dangal (and Aamir)Jabberwockhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-82708591043710360812017-02-20T11:52:09.629+05:302017-02-20T11:52:09.629+05:30I was thinking and I more or less agree with your ...I was thinking and I more or less agree with your list of Aamir's good work. One more movie has to be added to it. 1947: Earth is among Aamir’s best performances, to me. I really felt I was looking at a character and not the actor. And, his character is that of a beast – a really raw and earthy one with horrible intentions, which he brings alive superbly. But, again, I think he had little control on the overall movie in this case tooPessimist Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06057153008708242962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-48549976847530220252017-02-03T10:06:51.190+05:302017-02-03T10:06:51.190+05:30Crossed my mind too. Exact antithesis of taare zam...Crossed my mind too. Exact antithesis of taare zameen par. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-74776080708364288202017-01-08T02:04:00.984+05:302017-01-08T02:04:00.984+05:30My thoughts EXACTLY. You just saved me from the tr...My thoughts EXACTLY. You just saved me from the trouble of having to verbalise them.<br /><br />I liked the first half, but even then I could sense that something was off. This is the same Amir Khan who taught us that every child is potentially the light of the universe. (However, in India, that potential seems to be subject to the will of our parents.) What if the girls had wanted something different for themselves? The film seems to justify the view point that one should listen to one's parents because they know better than us.<br /><br />I knew Geeta was being set up for a lesson in morality during the sequence in which she steps outside her home for the first time and gets a taste of independent life. I could identify with her because I made all the same 'mistakes'. Only in my case, I should have been studying (and getting good grades), instead of trying my hand at quizzing or writing or generally thinking things through.<br /><br />The unmistakable hyper-nationalist tone of the second half ruined the movie for me. What was that press conference before the final match all about? No self-respecting coach or athlete would ever behave in such a condescending fashion. Artistic licence and suspension of belief have their limits. Especially when you are watching a movie that is inspired by real-life events.<br /><br />I think many of Amir Khan's movies tend to get carried away by their need to convey a message. So much so that they forget that no message is that simple.Marvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08469943928047272771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-24911127609631099322017-01-07T12:22:16.683+05:302017-01-07T12:22:16.683+05:30Jai, about the caricature coach, I haven't rea...Jai, about the caricature coach, I haven't read a single person say it may actually depict the truth. As individual sports go, how many great coaches are we aware of? Our latest individual studs - Saina, sindhu, srikanth - have been with Gopichand since they were kids. If they'd been handed to the Badminton Federation coaches, you want to bet that they'd still be so successful? Yeah, I know Saina is with Vimal Kumar now, but that's after she became a star.<br /><br />The problem with federation appointed coaches is that they are uniformly lazy. It's much more convenient for them to apply a one-size-fits-all approach to coaching. Individual sports demand a historical, in-depth understanding of each player's strengths and weaknesses. If there had been any culture of the childhood coach continuing to be consulted, it would be fine. But apart from stray cases in cricket, that's not how our high-handed sports bodies operate. <br /><br />In my view, the caricature is merely an accurate representation of majority attitudes. Do I know they actually behave like that? No. I'm just inferring from our glorious results over 7 decades in individual sports.KGBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07946169495730582891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-57909845873714530362017-01-05T22:44:21.730+05:302017-01-05T22:44:21.730+05:30Liberals are right about saying WHAT is right &...Liberals are right about saying WHAT is right & WHAT should happen.<br />But never listen to Liberals on HOW to achieve them. <br />Let the DOERs do it.<br />DewMoonDrophttp://dewmoondrop.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-36548225084570924792017-01-05T21:53:01.751+05:302017-01-05T21:53:01.751+05:30Let's just accept it that Aamir got to know ab...Let's just accept it that Aamir got to know about some very basic issues like poverty, poor education system only in his 30s and hence he reacts like that to it even in his 50s. It's a recent realisation. He said after watching Slumdog India isn't like this. He just have to go to Bandra East to see what India is like. I have seen him choking at events talking abt poor treatment meted out to young kids. Those tears, if they had come from a 15-21 year old, just out of kiddo phase moving to a phase in which you can reflect upon your past, would have seemed believable. No human I know behaves like Aamir in that age bracket. It's tough to merely watch him speak in interviews.Pessimist Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06057153008708242962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-71522444793841848662017-01-05T19:48:25.948+05:302017-01-05T19:48:25.948+05:30Agree closely with your views on 'Dangal' ...Agree closely with your views on 'Dangal' and the bulk of Aamir's body of work in the last 15 years. Some directors manage to make very strongly message oriented or issue-based films without comprising on the film's artistry. I do think that many of Aamir's films are message-oriented in a way that undermines them. Most of the time though, it's easy enough to get on board with the message; something like 'Taare Zaameen Par' which was entertaining enough and had some nice moments. Even with an appallingly bad film such as '3 idiots' we can get on board with the basic theme: shouldn't make your kids get into professions they have no aptitude for and no interest in. <br /><br />In 'Dangal' there is ambivalence about the message as well, and positive irritation at Aamir's Mahavir Phogat in the 2nd half. 'Rang De Basanti' was another one of those films which elicited a very mixed response: an act of revenge shouldn't be what inspires the nation to change. It's true that the corrupt politician those guys killed was responsible for many deaths and prolly would have gotten off scott-free and none of the questions the film posits have easy answers. However, I think I'm stating the obvious when i say that everyone taking the law into their own hands like that would lead to a state of anarchy, a total break down of the system and worse abuse of power (in whoever's hands). <br /><br />Even so Aamir is undoubtedly responsible for some good entertaining films. E.g. Lagaan. Would one call ‘Lagaan’ a richly layered thought provoking film? Not at all. I regard it as a one time watch. But it remains a well made and well told story; and making it was no cake walk. Aamir derives credit for things like that. I don’t know how much creative control Aamir exerted over ‘Rangeela’ but his contribution to that movie, as an actor, was very substantial. Just as Ashok Kumar and Motilal were actors; they had clout obviously and might have been able to influence other aspects of the film, but their contribution was primarily as actors.<br /><br />'Andaz Apna Apna' is an all time classic in my eyes and Aamir was excellent in it. 'Hum Hain Rahi Pyar Ke' is another 90's Aamir film I'm fond of.<br />Silverambrosiahttp://silverambrosia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-9336261225823543012017-01-05T19:03:37.680+05:302017-01-05T19:03:37.680+05:30No, I am not a Mama Lion, much as you may categori...No, I am not a Mama Lion, much as you may categorise me. And I did not critique your piece as much as the general tone of the comments. You have actually been quite kind/ fair to Aamir. <br /><br />When I said that the majority have spoken in favour of the film, I meant that despite the bhakts and the snipers, the film and the actor have won.lalsubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17644970512067728345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-80934024278600937272017-01-05T18:41:44.412+05:302017-01-05T18:41:44.412+05:30Well not always.
Sometimes the wisdom of the spec...Well not always.<br /><br />Sometimes the wisdom of the species may get out-of-date as circumstances and the "vaatavaran" changes. Eg : Sati, restrictions on Widow marriage, triple talaq, etc. Which is why we need you guys - the liberals :) To make some noise, and to course-correct the species!<br /><br />But then it's a fine balance. THe wisdom of the species has to be weighed against the dictates of individual reason.<br /><br />Eg : Take 3 idiots. Aamir pounces on our education system and lambasts "ROte learning" as the great evil of our times. Being a conservative, I take a more cautious approach. I ask myself - why do we have rote learning in the first place? Were people who evolved the current system stupid? No. Maybe rote learning serves some purpose? Maybe rote learning has its virtues? We should factor all of that in, and then weigh that carefully against the evils of rote-learning which ofcourse are obvious to many of us. And then push for incremental change.<br /><br />Aamir doesn't do this. He trusts his own reason. To hell with tradition and the wisdom of institutions. Let's change the system. Let's have a different pedagogy! Let's head to the Brave new World. That's heedless radicalism.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-18204860274008052402017-01-05T18:12:18.290+05:302017-01-05T18:12:18.290+05:30Yeah, I agree...you are rather objective on this.....Yeah, I agree...you are rather objective on this...the species with its grotesque biases and prejudices is very wise for surePessimist Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06057153008708242962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-85779963476743431132017-01-05T17:59:59.802+05:302017-01-05T17:59:59.802+05:30Lalsub: and here you are again, right on cue, defe...Lalsub: and here you are again, right on cue, defending Aamir like a Mama Lion, as you have so many times in the past, both here and on Facebook - welcome! Nice long comment, but it makes me wonder if you actually read my post or just skimmed through it, registered a sentence or two, and decided "here goes this faux-liberal criticising poor AK again". <br /><br /><br />Actually, no, I'm not wondering - I already know.<br /><br />P.S. Shrikanth above, who has written far harsher things about Aamir than I would, is definitely not a "liberal snob" and not, in my view at least, a "bhakt" either. But carry on with the categorisations that make you feel cosily indignant and help you indulge in this nonsensical idea that one of the most widely admired public figures in the country is some sort of poor victim.<br /><br />(Speaking of which, do you see the massive contradiction in the last two sentences of your comment? Aamir, poor thing, is "in a hard place" - but also, "the majority have spoken".)<br />Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-42028229537033824252017-01-05T17:19:40.061+05:302017-01-05T17:19:40.061+05:30"Does it mean you would rather find meaning i..."Does it mean you would rather find meaning in what a crowd thinks than those who beat their chests about individuality?"<br /><br />Yes, the crowd possesses a wisdom that individuals may lack. The individual may be foolish. But the species is wise. The Prejudices and the biases of the crowd represent distilled wisdom and experience.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-61274735067368209452017-01-05T17:17:55.399+05:302017-01-05T17:17:55.399+05:30"Rajendra Kumar? Seriously?"
Yes. Again..."Rajendra Kumar? Seriously?"<br /><br />Yes. Again, as with Raaj kumar, maybe not as talented as Aamir. But a better ouevre. Films I suggest - <br /><br />Humraahi, Gharana, Zindagi, Talaq, Sangam, Saathi, Aas ka Panchhi, Mere Mehboob, Dhool ka Phool, Dil Ek Mandir, Aarzoo, Kanoon, Chirag Kahan Roshni Kahan, Jhuk Gaya Aasman, Goonj Uthi Shehnai...shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-13735745794690733772017-01-05T17:09:08.201+05:302017-01-05T17:09:08.201+05:30Yep. Raaj has a better ouevre than Aamir. Anyday. ...Yep. Raaj has a better ouevre than Aamir. Anyday. Probably not a as good an actor as Aamir. But his films make me think harder than Aamir's.<br /><br />Oonche Log, Dil Ek Mandir, Paigham, Ardhangini, Dil Apni Preet Parai, Zindagi, Gharana, Waqt, Mother India. <br /><br />Each one of these is more watchable than 3 Idiots or Taare Zameen Par.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-42821497189631737602017-01-05T17:05:51.723+05:302017-01-05T17:05:51.723+05:30Child abuse is a very harsh term. This is a film a...Child abuse is a very harsh term. This is a film about a father trying to realise his sporting dreams through his daughters rather than the sons he does not have. He sees potential in the daughters and goes on to bully them into reaching their potential. And please remember that this is a true story. The Phogat girls have repeatedly said that the haanikaarak bapu in the film is depicted in a far milder manner than the real one. The girls have talked about initially resenting their father's harsh methods, but in time got round to appreciating him. And how different is Mahavir from the father of the Williams sisters, the tennis champs groomed through a low income childhood spent playing on public tennis courts in the US?<br /><br />And as for the caricature characterisation of the coach -- I feel that there is a grain of truth in it. In a recent interview that appeared at scroll.in, the Phogat girls spoke about the father being disbarred from attending the final matches. In fact Mahavir feels strongly that it was his forced absence that led to Babita being denied a gold medal, having to be content with silver. And all the Phogats have repeatedly contended that the film is 98 percent a reflection of the truth. Which means that except for the last scene ( the father being lured and shut up in a cloak room), all else in the film is true. <br /><br />https://www.scoopwhoop.com/It-Made-Us-Cry-Geeta-Babita-And-Mahavir-Phogat-On-Watching-Aamir-Khans-Dangal/?ref=social&type=fb&b=0#.28d6lupzt<br /><br />Scroll down towards the end parts of this interview above -- and it seems that the film version merely depicts an exaggerated version of the truth.<br /><br /><br /><br />Incidentally coach Sondhi ( the disgruntled gentleman who has made his annoyance plain to the media), has actually spoken about Mahavir's insistence on continuing with his own training methods, thus clashing with the techniques used by coaches at Patiala -- and the necessity of temporarily banning Mahavir.<br />http://www.hindustantimes.com/other-sports/dangal-not-real-geeta-phogat-s-india-coach-says-why-mahavir-had-to-be-banned/story-FHsx2qwxy7WT1MrX9XshhM.html<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Dangal is a film that should have shut up the sneering hate brigade, but no, the snobby attitude continues, as evinced in the comments.<br /><br />This is the problem with ' liberal' critics. I am a liberal myself, but I can sense liberal bs ing. A film like The Lunchbox -- I loved it but found it hard to take at facevalue, the character of a middle class housewife who has this continuous Lunchbox- platonic relationship with an unknown Indian man. Add to it the one note drone of Irfan Khan, the darling of the liberal Hindi film viewer. I like him, but prefer Nawazuddin. Irfan is all right.<br /><br />Aamir is of course beneath value, worthy of contempt. He is in a hard place -- between snobs and Bhakts.<br /><br />Still, the majority have spoken. <br /><br /><br />lalsubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17644970512067728345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-69591758537677118542017-01-05T17:04:07.869+05:302017-01-05T17:04:07.869+05:30:) That was rhetorical. But you get the drift. The...:) That was rhetorical. But you get the drift. The way my mind works is - a small patch of self-righteous crap in an otherwise decent film causes me to repel from it.<br /><br />What do you think is Aamir's best film? Andaz Apna Apna?shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-83834602804939179922017-01-05T16:36:22.873+05:302017-01-05T16:36:22.873+05:30//at least until I’m 70 and senile and become conv...//at least until I’m 70 and senile and become convinced that Aamir should have done a Kamal Haasan and played all five roles himself//...lol this is really funny. I think Aamir might have done it if he was in South India. Pessimist Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06057153008708242962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-7961490428728279642017-01-05T16:35:09.868+05:302017-01-05T16:35:09.868+05:30hahahaha...i think u nailed Aamir. But, how do u e...hahahaha...i think u nailed Aamir. But, how do u explain being a conservative on one hand and you having deep distrust of human wisdom and discretion? Does it mean you would rather find meaning in what a crowd thinks than those who beat their chests about individuality?Pessimist Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06057153008708242962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-52254739044382901232017-01-05T16:05:27.074+05:302017-01-05T16:05:27.074+05:30Rajendra Kumar? Seriously?Rajendra Kumar? Seriously?rajkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04473706252786535841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-51342244651337436922017-01-05T15:45:06.572+05:302017-01-05T15:45:06.572+05:30Comparing Dangal with other sports films like Mary...Comparing Dangal with other sports films like Mary Kom, Bhaag Milkha Bhaag....one thing I must say in favour of the film...it took me into the very fabric of the film as it did the audience around me. None of the other films evoked the kind of response from cineplex audiences like Dangal did...standing for the national anthems, clapping at various points in the film. Child abuse? A slightly strong term I think. I agree that children should be left free to choose what they want to do, etc. But think about it...in a place like where the two girls were brought up....what other choice did they have except get married at a very young age and have to live with a man they'd never seen till the day they got married. I definitely did not agree with the deviation from fact - about the coach being portrayed as the villain. Which is where Dhoni scored over Dangal - completely believable. But maybe in the process of narrating a story with such diligence, the film lost out on the one thing audiences react to - emotion.GG1https://www.blogger.com/profile/01949745232730431435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-92126364426470738632017-01-05T11:22:55.791+05:302017-01-05T11:22:55.791+05:30Anjali: yes, and to a degree this is an inbuilt pr...Anjali: yes, and to a degree this is an inbuilt problem in any inspirational sports film. For every one person who wins a gold medal or some other big title after years of hard struggle and sacrifice, there are countless others who never achieve those things despite giving it all they have. So it can be argued that the only decent/empathetic way of presenting such a story would be by avoiding the inspirational, big-picture messages altogether. But of course, that's almost impossible to do when making a mainstream film about someone who did achieve big things.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-13415609114021728342017-01-05T11:17:53.329+05:302017-01-05T11:17:53.329+05:30Okay, now you're losing me. I like Shakti a lo...Okay, now you're losing me. I like Shakti a lot too, but better than all of AK's productions put together?Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-75767291983799751012017-01-05T11:17:05.865+05:302017-01-05T11:17:05.865+05:30Raaj Kumar? Really?Raaj Kumar? Really?Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-52679381947572704772017-01-05T10:17:52.974+05:302017-01-05T10:17:52.974+05:30yes, of course - no argument that it had nuance to...yes, of course - no argument that it had nuance too. Overall though, I still prefer the first half of MS Dhoni to most of this film (if it makes any sense to compare half of one film with the whole of another!)Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-15712912170956278432017-01-05T09:20:59.306+05:302017-01-05T09:20:59.306+05:30I was watching the Ramesh Sippy production Shakti ...I was watching the Ramesh Sippy production Shakti today. For the first time! Strange that I missed out on it all these days.<br /><br />Now Shakti is what might qualify as an out-and-out commercial film in the eyes of many. Yet, it is a greater work of art than all of Amir Khan's productions put together! A movie that has many subtle and profound things to say about relationships, duty, love, and Dharma, while never for a second turning preachy or pretentious. <br /><br />Now that's art. That's movie making at its best. Not monstrosities like Taare Zameen Par, or PK.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.com