tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post7517001494722094490..comments2024-03-29T15:45:04.867+05:30Comments on Jabberwock: Emotional palettes: Vikram Chandra on mixed rasa in ancient literature and popular cinemaJabberwockhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-80260554547496760972014-01-25T09:52:56.822+05:302014-01-25T09:52:56.822+05:30Anyway, why compare a nineteenth century empire to...<i>Anyway, why compare a nineteenth century empire to a medieval one? Can't really compare Khilji to Lord Lytton or Lord Dufferin except in the abstract.</i><br /><br />Okay. Then let's compare the 19th century imperialists with 18th/19th century muslim imperialists - Hyder Ali, Tipu Sultan? The latter is notorious for his communal atrocities and genocidal activities. But yeah, today he has been canonized as this great "freedom fighter".<br /><br />Some links here -<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captivity_of_Mangalorean_Catholics_at_Seringapatam<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captivity_of_Nairs_at_Seringapatam<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captivity_of_Kodavas_at_Seringapatam<br /><br />And I never said British rule was all "benevolent". No way. I believe the freedom movement was a good thing and 1947 was a desirable event. But just as we go out of our way to be kind to medieval Muslim imperialists by saying - "Oh...they were product of their times...oh they gave us the mughlai cuisine...oh they gave us salwar kameez", let us also make similar kind allowances while judging British rule!shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-74297456136010674692014-01-25T07:37:13.706+05:302014-01-25T07:37:13.706+05:30@Shrikanth - sorry was away for a bit. I wouldn...@Shrikanth - sorry was away for a bit. I wouldn't uncritically accept the benevolent nature of British rule. It was pretty violent to those it dubbed enemies - ask any Santhal, Munda, heck even any communist between 1920-1939. 15,000 Santhals were killed during their 19th century uprising. It's just that being forest peoples and/or peasants their casualty figures didn't often hit the headlines. A sense of "duty" would often justify the brutality to a Victorian Englishman quite as effectively as a religious sensibility. Anyway, why compare a nineteenth century empire to a medieval one? Can't really compare Khilji to Lord Lytton or Lord Dufferin except in the abstract.<br /><br />SharmishthaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-59307845794208072742014-01-23T18:10:50.853+05:302014-01-23T18:10:50.853+05:30it was news to me that good code can aspire not ju...<i>it was news to me that good code can aspire not just to functionality but to elegance and beauty as well</i><br /><br />It is perhaps one of great tragedies that computer science (programming) and to some extent math are considered to be "dry". While it is true that programs are run on computers and mathematical proofs establish a mathematical statement (and hence devoid of any "art"), humans do have to read programs/proofs written by others. It is due to this reason that elegant code and proofs have a special place in the hearts of programmers and mathematicians. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erd%C5%91s" rel="nofollow">Paul Erdos</a>, the most prolific mathematician ever, is said to have believed that there is a book that contains the most elegant proof of every mathematical statement (often referred as "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofs_from_THE_BOOK" rel="nofollow">THE BOOK</a>"). <br /><br />I have always enjoyed reading Chandra's book and am looking forward to checking this one out: thanks for this post!Atri Rudrahttp://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~atri/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-4416141401145144742014-01-22T09:18:44.496+05:302014-01-22T09:18:44.496+05:30there’s a tiny part of me that still feels a bit e...<i> there’s a tiny part of me that still feels a bit embarrassed about the tropes of our popular movies; still reluctant to fully embrace the best of them as art (as opposed to “enjoyable entertainment, but nothing more”)</i><br />Great post. I identify with this part completely. Further complications arise because having brought up on a abundant diet of Hindi movies, I have formed somewhat of an emotional connection with many of them. Later, when I came to know abt World Cinema, I could appreciate it on a different level. At the same time, I do not feel the need to dismiss B'wood just because of the song'n'dance routines. Question is - can we compare the two? Or it may make more sense to treat B'wood movies as a different (sub?) genre?Rajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17687803784528215259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-73885016588726555232014-01-21T11:27:31.222+05:302014-01-21T11:27:31.222+05:30When religion was on the decline, "duty"...<i>When religion was on the decline, "duty" became the raison d'etre of the Raj.</i><br /><br />That's correct. Infact this is where British Imperialism was so very different from say Belgian Imperialism or the Imperialism of Mongol / Turk tribes.<br /><br />While imperialists of 1200 like Bakhtiyar Khilji looted places like Nalanda, the civil servants of the 19th century like WW Hunter (who passed rigorous entrance exams to get Indian appointments) wrote copious histories of this alien land, conducted surveys, developed detailed maps among other things. Yes, you may argue that these "histories" were prejudiced, inaccurate and condescending in some respects. But one has to understand what went before and what a massive jump in scholarship these amateur European scholars represented at the time!<br /><br />Anyone can correct me if I am wrong. But before British Raj, to the best of my knowledge, there was little/no knowledge of say someone like Ashoka. In fact he is hardly mentioned in the Puranas. All the scholarship on these great kings of the past has happened over the past 300 years. Also I am not sure how big say someone like Kalidasa or Shudraka or Dandin was in the Indian intellectual consciousness in 1600. We can never be sure of these things as we do not have a time machine. But I suspect a lot of the discovery of these giants of the past has happened very recently (past 200-300 years).shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-64993967733104565352014-01-21T01:46:17.160+05:302014-01-21T01:46:17.160+05:30"...good code can aspire not just to function..."...good code can aspire not just to functionality but to elegance and beauty as well..." <br /><br />A "for repeat loop" in the programming language C is a beautiful, beautiful thing. When IBM was looking for the first generation of career programmers, it actively recruited musicians as the skill sets were felt to be similar. Good code is like the best lyric: concise, without a word wasted.mike ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682166152336094196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-43697436496702479032014-01-21T00:28:55.636+05:302014-01-21T00:28:55.636+05:30Makes me feel good.. that Vikram Chandra and you t...Makes me feel good.. that Vikram Chandra and you think the way I do about myself. You see, I have a bachelor & masters in computer science, and way back in 1990 when I graduated and came to US of A, I met an author in one of the *reading* sessions in a public library. When he asked me what I did for living, I replied that I am an author.. but unlike you, my audience is made up of machines. He liked it!<br /><br />-- AlcoholicAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-85033803866115250342014-01-20T23:46:44.583+05:302014-01-20T23:46:44.583+05:30Would highly recommend that Shrikanth and Jaiarjun...Would highly recommend that Shrikanth and Jaiarjun read an old classic, Francis G. Hutchins, "The Illusion of Permanence" especially the chapter "The Right Sort of Conduct: India's Attraction for Victorian Englishmen". When religion was on the decline, "duty" became the raison d'etre of the Raj. I have my students read it in parallel with Sumit Sarkar on social history and extracts of Tagore's "Gora"<br /><br />SharmishthaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-24995489016942391042014-01-19T19:43:00.976+05:302014-01-19T19:43:00.976+05:30But the process by its very nature is predicated o...<i>But the process by its very nature is predicated on basic assumptions of civilisational "superiority"</i><br /><br />One more thought. At the beginning of say 17th century when the British involvement in India was just about beginning, I don't think there was any "assumption" of civilizational superiority by the English. Because at that point England, though on its way up, was hardly a major power. In fact East India Company traders prostrated in front of Mr.Jehangir overawed by the superficial grandeur of Mughal India (masking the general material and intellectual poverty of the land). And Jehangir is on record ridiculing England as a small island of fishermen! Now I grant that England was not yet a major power in 1600. Yet, that island of fishermen in 1600 boasted of Queen Elizabeth, Shakespeare, Christopher Marlowe, Thomas Hobbes, Walter Raleigh among others. And within the next 150 years, it would produce more geniuses like Isaac Newton, Daniel Defoe, David Hume, Jonathan Swift among others.<br /><br />And it's amazing that the dope addict ruling in Agra at the time had little clue of what was happening in that part of the world! <br /><br />So this whole ideology of "occidental superiority", "eugenics" and the like came about only very late in the Victorian period (late 19th cen/early 20th cen) by which time England was drunk on power and prestige for quite a while and started basking in intellectual complacency.<br /><br />Sadly this intellectual backwardness of Mughal India is never ever discussed anywhere. The moment you discuss it, you become a "muslim basher". Indians prefer to remember that this Jehangir chap as the handsome Yusuf Khan who stood up to his dad to win his courtesan love Madhubala :)shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-81275731700653012782014-01-19T12:46:41.523+05:302014-01-19T12:46:41.523+05:30But the process by its very nature is predicated o...<i>But the process by its very nature is predicated on basic assumptions of civilisational "superiority". And once it has begun, the undermining of the colonised people's heritage and forms of communication follows naturally. </i><br /><br />My point is - when the great clash of civilizations happened in 18th century, it was very obvious to any onlooker that the civilization of the imperialist was a lot more advanced and complex than the civilization of the "colonized". All civilizations are not "equal" at all points in history. Nor can we say simplistically that civilizations are "just different" and we should never ever try to rank order them. <br /><br />I agree that in the process certain assumptions can be made which can unjustly undermine anything and everything associated with the defeated peoples. But I doubt if such a thing happened in the 19th cen. Yes, there were jingoists and "racists" among the imperialists. But that can't be helped. It's human nature. As Jack Lemmon's boyfriend says in Some Like it Hot - "Nobody's perfect".shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-40430909594702537932014-01-19T12:38:11.102+05:302014-01-19T12:38:11.102+05:30Jai: Ofcourse I don't expect anyone to agree c...Jai: Ofcourse I don't expect anyone to agree completely with all the points. I'd be glad if people atleast agree to disagree (instead of calling names and descending to abuse - which is what I've been receiving in many quarters for voicing these very views in no stronger language than this.<br /><br />Some of those labels include "Macaulayputra", "brown sahib" or even worse - "muslim-basher". Pretty sad. It's almost as though anyone who disagrees with any aspect of the Nehruvian consensus must be evil.<br /><br />I must qualify my remarks on "Stree Parva" by saying I haven't read it in full. The basic argument was that there is such a thing called "melodramatic excess" which needn't always be defended.<br /><br />Another tendency I notice especially among young people these days is to look very kindly upon the extremely "ancient" past because the lifestyle described in the books belonging to that very ancient past appeals to the liberals of today. For eg: The sexual prurience in parts of Mahabharata or the references to beef-eating in our epics. A colleague of mine was arguing that Valmiki Ramayana is a great book because it views Rama objectively while Tulasidas Ramayan is crap because it idealizes Ram and has a devotional element.<br /><br />Well, I am a bit ambivalent about this line of reasoning. The original Vedic epics date back to maybe as early as 1000 BC describing a fairly primitive way of life totally lost to us. The kernel of those stories has been idealized over the years in medieval works like Tulasidas' Ramayan. Such idealization is looked down upon by several "modernists". But to my mind, it is just the natural course of history. Tulasidas' Ramayan with its idealized Ram has probably inspired more people and has had a great practical utility as a religious work in the everyday lives of ordinary people - something denied to a secular work like Valmiki Ramayana.<br /><br />Sorry for the digression.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-91307350652477475012014-01-19T12:16:32.025+05:302014-01-19T12:16:32.025+05:30Anon: hmm? This post has been written by a non-pro...Anon: hmm? This post has been written by a non-programmer, and hopefully I have provided a sense of the book's varied contents, including many things that should be of interest to people who know nothing about code or algorithms.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-13264641437826358652014-01-19T12:13:01.536+05:302014-01-19T12:13:01.536+05:30P.S. of course imperialism doesn't have to hav...P.S. of course imperialism doesn't have to have a clearly planned, point-by-point agenda, and at the ground level of course it can happen in a haphazard way. But the process by its very nature is predicated on basic assumptions of civilisational "superiority". And once it has begun, the undermining of the colonised people's heritage and forms of communication follows naturally. <br /><br />Should also clarify here that Chandra shows his own ambivalence about these things - he isn't making any jingoistic statements about the old Indian way of doing things being superior. He usually lets questions and ideas hang in the air.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-28222286712780196662014-01-19T12:11:32.532+05:302014-01-19T12:11:32.532+05:30Quick query: non-programmers are to stay away from...Quick query: non-programmers are to stay away from this one?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-76249020065105540062014-01-19T12:03:32.400+05:302014-01-19T12:03:32.400+05:30Shrikanth: I thought you'd weigh in here, and ...Shrikanth: I thought you'd weigh in here, and I had an idea of what you were likely to say. Well-made points, though I don't agree with all of them. (Definitely not about the Stree Parva, which is much more than just "wailing princesses and queens".) But will try to reply at length later.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-9981640708800258402014-01-19T11:54:04.039+05:302014-01-19T11:54:04.039+05:30Also as both of us have discussed elsewhere, there...Also as both of us have discussed elsewhere, there is a very admirable and long tradition of melodrama in the West dating all the way back to ancient Greece and Rome. And Melodrama was a veritable art form (not always pejoratively viewed) even during the Victorian era (that much reviled era of prudery to which nothing good is ever attributed).<br /><br />Yet, melodrama can be bad when its object is just to sensationalize and emote and titillate. As is the case with "Stree Parva" what with its wailing pricesses and queens. Mahabharata is no doubt a great work but it is perhaps fair to say that the "Stree Parva" hasn't dated all that well.<br /><br />So I think it is okay if we look down upon certain forms of excess melodrama in our tradition.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-26212495631512121932014-01-19T11:36:53.759+05:302014-01-19T11:36:53.759+05:30Thought provoking piece.
how imperialism required...Thought provoking piece.<br /><br /><i>how imperialism required that colonisers cast the colonised as primitive, childish, undeveloped, and sentiment-driven; how entire modes of artistic expression get labelled inferior and “premodern” as a result; and what effect that has had on how we continue to view our art and culture even in post-colonial times</i><br /><br />To be honest, I doubt if the "colonisers" did any of those things. In fact it was during the British Raj the entire gamut of Sanskrit literature got rediscovered and translated into European languages and the whole discipline of Oriental studies got founded. Yes, there is the odd questionable remark by the likes of Macaulay that patronizes Oriental literature by comparing it unfavourably with European literature of the 18th/19th centuries. But I see nothing wrong in that. In fact there is a whole lot of truth in it.<br /><br />With all due respect, Kautilya compares very unfavourably with Adam Smith and Sankaracharya compares unfavourably with David Hume. And the Puranas (traditional Indian "history") is many many rungs below the historical writing of Hume and Gibbon or even James Mill. And I say this without qualification despite being a huge admirer of the likes of Sankara and Ramanuja.<br /><br />The British Raj did a lot to revive interest in classical Hinduism that lasts to this day. The damage to Indian literature/art forms happened during the previous colonization by dynasts of different shades (from 800 AD to 1800 AD) when the whole of North India completely lost touch with its Sanskritic past to the extent that there are more Sanskrit scholars today down south in Dravidian heartland than in Punjab (which is the birthplace of Sanskrit!).<br /><br />By the way, Imperialism did not "require" in my book any deliberate subversion of native cultures. I don't think British Imperialism had such a planned agenda. The Empire was the unconscious handiwork of traders, merchants, missionaries (and later the govt itself) - largely unplanned and evolving over a 100 years. <br /><br />Regarding the "cult of modernity" : I don't understand why men like Mr.Chandra talk disparagingly of the very cult that has made blogposts like these and men like him a reality!shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.com