tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post3133786503756253477..comments2024-03-29T12:59:00.612+05:30Comments on Jabberwock: Thoughts on Kai Po Che! as an adaptationJabberwockhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-31090419925391758372013-03-08T18:30:16.379+05:302013-03-08T18:30:16.379+05:30Jai, the debate probably wasn't going anywhere...Jai, the debate probably wasn't going anywhere, but it was fun to read while it lasted.<br />Anyway, saw this film, and was blown away by Raj Kumar Yadav's performance. It was of the caliber of a Nawazuddin Siddiqui. I hope his film Shahid is readily available.I guess, his role must have looked the least interesting of the 3 on paper, but he completely sunk his teeth into it.I think, it was his performance that provided the movie with some authentic heft.<br />Rahulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08600228969911790479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-59250382250768844392013-03-08T07:46:23.964+05:302013-03-08T07:46:23.964+05:30Shrikanth, Sapera: let's give this particular ...Shrikanth, Sapera: let's give this particular discussion a little break, please? Even Griffith's ghost is getting fed up of it. Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-15066800728271394002013-03-08T03:58:35.351+05:302013-03-08T03:58:35.351+05:30It's very suspicious to me why you over-valori...It's very suspicious to me why you over-valorize the nominal "Western Civilization", but in response to your statement, Western Civ is in LOVE with labels. Ever read the nytimes? Most of the labels that trickle out into the rest of the world have been invented here. True, there's more conversation about these labels perhaps more than in India (which I have little idea of at this point). But there are many and complex reasons for this, which I again, refuse to go into within the limits of a comments section. <br /><br />As for RDB, I don't know why you're so obsessed with this as a talking point. The Birth of a Nation is an iconic, landmark creation in the history of cinema. It is HUGELY influential and was made in a country that has tremendous influence on the world's thinking at this point in history. In comparison, just in sheer numbers, RDB is an inconsequential footnote. <br /><br />Second, who are the critics (liberal or otherwise) who love and proselytize about it so much? Jai probably doesn't, Baradwaj Rangan probably doesn't, and I'm running out of names here whose opinion I respect, but pretty much zero serious Indian critics have any deep love for this film. I don't what kind of crowd you run with, but I personally know no one who even likes this film. <br /><br />As for crying "racism" at every little thing, I think in the long term, it's a useful thing. If it annoys you, well, sorry charlie. The US, where I live, is deeply systematically iniquitous on a racial basis to this day, which is something reading Hayek won't tell you much about. Ergo, I'm fine with Birth of a Nation being criticized every now an then from a fresh perspective. Views evolve, and it has to be critically demonstrated in every generation anew that it's a work worth defending. To my mind, at this point it is, but surely I wouldn't go so far as to say that it will always be so FOR ALL TIME FOREVA. <br /><br />I will perhaps, submit that crying racism gets old, and people need to figure out new ways of criticizing oppression. To be honest, I'm optimistic about this happening - progressives in america are usually smart about being flexible on this(which has nothing to do with the intrinsic goodness about america or western civilization), since oppression qualitatively mutates and changes here at a rate faster than any other place on earth. saperahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553004590976656655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-57678772540927914682013-03-07T21:37:36.382+05:302013-03-07T21:37:36.382+05:30To you democracy is an idea worth defending, to ot...<i>To you democracy is an idea worth defending, to others it is a tyranny of the majority. Pro and anti-democratic art can be good/great/puerile/wtev.</i><br /><br />Ofcourse!<br />Never going to deny this.<br />And I welcome critiques of modern democratic institutions.<br /><br />My point was a little different. If one has no qualms using strong words like "racist" to describe a 100 year old period piece like <i>Birth of a Nation</i>, why don't I find similar promptness among commentators in dismissing potentially incendiary works like RDB with similarly damning labels?shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-25387352952519971842013-03-07T20:22:05.545+05:302013-03-07T20:22:05.545+05:30I am honestly not going to debate why Birth of a N...<i>I am honestly not going to debate why Birth of a Nation is racist. As far as I'm concerned that is an issue that is settled. I REALLY doubt you can convince me otherwise</i><br /><br />I agree with you. There mustn't be a debate on this. Because the word "racist" is just a label. And my previous comments were essentially attempts to explain why "labeling" is wrong.<br /><br />You know how words can be used.<br />As Naipaul once said, labels can only obfuscate and ignite passion and rarely enlighten. Example : I am civilized and steadfast; you are barbarian and fanatical; he is primitive and blind...and so on.<br /><br />I have used these labels myself. Most of us do. But we must try to avoid. The very greatness of Western civilization lies in its reluctance to use these labels.<br /><br />Which is why it makes me cringe to see the label "racist" being thrown about so heedlessly in the West. It is a word one seeks refuge in to avoid argument.<br /><br />If <i>Birth of a Nation</i> is racist then so are the millions of Americans (white and black) who enjoyed it. I cannot judge 1915 attitudes by 21st century lenses especially as we are far more ignorant of the realities of 1860s/70s than the aged audience who watched this film. We rely on sanitized history books while the audience of 1815 had experienced the realities of Civil war either first hand or second hand (one generation removed).<br /><br />That's all I have to say.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-71350898346290015682013-03-07T16:09:02.676+05:302013-03-07T16:09:02.676+05:30Just to clarify, Shrikanth - I am honestly not goi...Just to clarify, Shrikanth - I am honestly not going to debate why Birth of a Nation is racist. As far as I'm concerned that is an issue that is settled. I REALLY doubt you can convince me otherwise.<br /><br />I keep noticing that you have a tendency to conflate an argument against racism with an argument about whether or not its any good as cinematic art (of course the two things are complicatedly intertwined frequently; BofAN succeeds despite being racist which is to its credit - being racist isn't). <br /><br />To reiterate, I am NOT going to debate morality with you Shrikanth. As you pointed out you are no civil war scholar, and just on the few points you have put forth I discern an enormous historical ignorance coupled with a conservative instinct of defending the status quo. So yeah, I refuse to go there. saperahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553004590976656655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-19303342109648357602013-03-07T12:55:38.176+05:302013-03-07T12:55:38.176+05:30Re Birth of a Nation, it was racist, there's n...Re Birth of a Nation, it was racist, there's no argument about that. <br /><br />But it was also good art. <br /><br />They don't cancel each other out. <br /><br />My final word: "propaganda" is in the eyes of the beholder. <br /><br />As I said before, there's no reason why propaganda inherently can't be good art. <br /><br />To you democracy is an idea worth defending, to others it is a tyranny of the majority. Pro and anti-democratic art can be good/great/puerile/wtev. <br /><br />As for Aamir Khan, RDB specifically I have little to say. I personally thought it was middlebrow hackwork but that's neither here nor there. saperahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553004590976656655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-23983691223346662012013-03-07T09:31:37.709+05:302013-03-07T09:31:37.709+05:30few serious left wing critics/academics have chall...<i> few serious left wing critics/academics have challenged the artistic integrity of B of a N, or Leni Rifenstahl or Will to Power or whatever fascist/racist old timey art that is any good. Ergo, strawman</i><br /><br />Well. It's almost taken as a given by everyone that <i>Birth of a Nation</i> is a racist, evil film! Take Roger Ebert for instance who says -<br /><br /><i>The film represents how racist a white American could be in 1915 without realizing he was racist at all</i><br /><br />An utterly condescending remark which misunderstands the sentiments of the film maker as well as the audience which took to it back then in 1915.<br /><br />Is it "racist" to claim that the Civil War was a painful tragedy regardless of what it accomplished? Is it racist to claim that the Civil war did not result in inter-racial amity? <br /><br />And Griffith isn't the only critic of the Reconstruction Era. Several black intellectuals have also concluded that Reconstruction was a failed experiment. Maybe it wasn't as melodramatically violent as Griffith portrayed it. But the era was flawed nonetheless. The South which was in mid 19th century one of the more prosperous regions in American suffered grievous economic setbacks and has not recovered its preeminence since!<br /><br />So a price was paid. And a very heavy price at that. But I guess an acknowledgement of that is "racist".<br /><br />And I'm sorry. There's absolutely no parallel between a somewhat sentimental flawed film like <i>Birth of a Nation</i> and an openly propagandist, Nazi mouthpiece film like <i>Triumph of the Will</i>! It is an insult to Griffith to mention these films in the same breath.<br /><br />Oh...and it is surprising that prudes who regard BofaN as "racist" don't express a fraction of the outrage against 21st century monstrosities like RDB which overtly encourage violence and terror and disrespect democratic institutions.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-76964368135923387472013-03-06T23:19:04.598+05:302013-03-06T23:19:04.598+05:30Shrikanth, I am largely agreeing with you here! Yo...Shrikanth, I am largely agreeing with you here! You do realize that? <br /><br />I have pegged you as a Mises/Hayek conservative, with ample evidence from your blog. So yeah. I don't think you're the religious sort. <br /><br />The point I was making is that no one dismisses Birth of a Nation merely as a "racist" film. It was a landmark film by an iconic director whose other merits have been noted by many. Or I should say, no one substantive has ever dismissed it out of hand for those reasons you mentioned. <br /><br />The handful who do meaningfully register this complaint are those who actually have a historical stake in the matter, i.e black americans. This complaint is hardly "liberal" arm waving and it would in fact be specious and ignorant to dismiss that as such. <br /><br />HOWEVER, having said that, few serious left wing critics/academics have challenged the artistic integrity of B of a N, or Leni Rifenstahl or Will to Power or whatever fascist/racist old timey art that is any good. Ergo, strawman. saperahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553004590976656655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-63510566077814379472013-03-06T18:44:23.643+05:302013-03-06T18:44:23.643+05:30Nice movie with small budget this type movies comi...Nice movie with small budget this type movies coming very rare at this time however I love this movie and its storyVarunhttp://cinemages.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-69551209579645578862013-03-06T09:24:12.797+05:302013-03-06T09:24:12.797+05:30As an aside, Birth of a Nation is available online...As an aside, Birth of a Nation is available online <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDiQWsENgnk&wide=1" rel="nofollow">here</a><br /><br />What a shame that this masterpiece has a Like to dislike ratio on youtube of almost 2:1!<br /><br />It highlights the hyper-sensitivity of modern movie-goers and their acute lack of a historical perspective.<br /><br />I watched this film for the first time four years ago without cringing once during its duration! It never occurred to me that I am watching a "racist" film. If anything it provided a necessary corrective to this mythical view that the great man Abe Lincoln came in and abolished slavery and everyone lived happily ever after.<br /><br />What this Griffith film does highlight, albeit clumsily, is that the great social change came at a huge cost. It resulted in a War that claimed more American lives than any other war before or since! (close to a million I think). It resulted in race riots in some cases and a deep sense of insecurity across communities.<br /><br />In hindsight, the War was perhaps a good thing. It abolished an evil institution and prevented secession. But that wasn't so evident when it happened! Back then the War was a hellish experience which claimed about 2% of American population. I am no historian of the Civil War but maybe this great social change could've been accomplished through peaceful means? Perhaps by compensating slave owners.<br /><br />At any rate the movie makes one think and hardly "evil". But yes, 21st cen chatterati are apt to find it "evil" because it doesn't fit their view of the world.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-41612477549600526312013-03-05T22:57:07.595+05:302013-03-05T22:57:07.595+05:30and the liberal middlebrow who defends message mov...<i>and the liberal middlebrow who defends message movies is surely a straw man</i><br /><br />Not a strawman at all.<br />There is no dearth of such middle brows or such "message" films.<br /><br />Take the huge fan following of Aamir Khan in this country especially among the English speaking elite. Movies like RDB, TZP, 3 Idiots...Shallow films that attempt to lecture the audience with a missionary zeal! I'd say these are propaganda films - far more partisan and potentially more deleterious than <i>The Searchers</i>.<br /><br />RDB in my book was decidedly an uncivilized film. Far more uncivilized than even the much maligned <i>Birth of a Nation</i>shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-72910117785412799092013-03-05T22:09:51.858+05:302013-03-05T22:09:51.858+05:30oh em gee, you're more of a "liberal"...<i>oh em gee, you're more of a "liberal" than you think shrikanth. oh em gee</i><br /><br />This isn't a liberal vs conservative debate. It's a choice between civilization and barbarism.<br /><br />I am not commenting on this film as I haven't seen it but a general tendency in our media to empathize with barbarians!<br /><br />And yes, one can be a conservative without being a VHP/Bajrang Dal sympathizer. Those are not conservative groups, but rabid reactionary elements.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-32915633885806344422013-03-05T21:36:07.635+05:302013-03-05T21:36:07.635+05:30Are we left with so little a space for honest disc...<i>Are we left with so little a space for honest discussions, that even toothless cats have to be feared like man-eaters?</i><br /><br />Short answer: yes.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-87497657490408357852013-03-05T19:23:33.664+05:302013-03-05T19:23:33.664+05:30Loved this post. And loved the film too.
And yes I...Loved this post. And loved the film too.<br />And yes I too felt the ending was a little cheesy. But here is something that totally stumped me: why on earth did they bring in Ajay Jadeja for the last bit. I mean seriously ?? ( It was all downhill from thereon, to be very honest. )<br />Also I fail to understand why we are celebrating this film's successful escape from censorship. Are we left with so little a space for honest discussions, that even toothless cats have to be feared like man-eaters ? Mukeshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13403470961038062578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-29111279561728920122013-03-05T18:19:03.378+05:302013-03-05T18:19:03.378+05:30MY REVIEW OF KOI PO CHE : Three friends share same...MY REVIEW OF KOI PO CHE : Three friends share same geographical space and co exist during same period, in history, but they live in their own distinctive worlds. Their worlds are products of their idiosyncratic proclivities and passions. Due to their long years of friendship and common goal to make a decent living their worlds converge into genial camaraderie. But as time passes the inherent differences in their disposition starts showing up as cracks in their bond and eventually relationship gets acrimonious. Vicissitudes of history then goads their worlds to confront each other till they find themselves on ominous discomforting crossroads.<br /><br />Koi Po Che is a well crafted portrayal of their three worlds, their mutual interplay and influence of tumultuous history on the trajectory of these individuals. It generously invests in its three protagonists, builds their characters and finds befitting actors to do this job. You know them like you know your neighbour. It then weaves these three strands on a carefully tailored backdrop, delicately, into a delectable tapestry.<br /><br />The movie had smell of contemporary India; both its fragrance and stench. It revolves on cricket and communalism. Both evoke strong passions but it does not ‘use’ them as movie’s selling point. They do not make the movie relevant but as they are relevant, by themselves, and punctuate the storyline, so they find place in the movie. It brings out how young, aspirational, India is willing to cut corners to fulfill its dreams and the dejection that ensue on its failure. Some of the hackneyed but pertinent issues like conflicts because of generational gap and emotive disconnect between the between traditional and modern etcetera are touched in the movie but deft handling ensures they don’t turn into a cliché.<br /><br />It is reminiscent of Hazaaron Khwaishein Aisi primarily because of style of novel like narrative; steady pace of events inching towards a climax with a sure footed gait. But what makes this movie stand out from the crowd it is the ability to make an unusual fiction look real, to make incredible sound authentic, to transmute unbelievable into believable.<br /><br />Koi Po Che has its share of technical ‘hits and misses’ that would not go unnoticed under a well lit scanner. But I would like to part with my fine tooth, analytical, proof-reader so as not to miss the forest for the trees. It is a wholesome cinematic experience not just because it tells a story worth telling but, more so, because it is story well told.Dr Vishal Dhingranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-76923212572918062852013-03-05T14:20:49.076+05:302013-03-05T14:20:49.076+05:30Yes! I agree with you Jai! In fact I came back to ...Yes! I agree with you Jai! In fact I came back to add a message to Shrikanth - the searchers is lauded by many putatively left wing cultural commentators as a good movie. If you have time, do read Jonathan Lethem's slightly long essay called Defending the Searchers about grappling with its moral ambiguity but still loving it nonetheless - http://tinyurl.com/b2b26of<br /><br />the birth of a nation tops the village voice's best 100 movies of all time poll. The movie celebrates the klan for crying out loud. And I don't have to tell you the Village Voice's politics. <br /><br />and the liberal middlebrow who defends message movies is surely a straw man. speaking of which, Jai, agitprop could be good art too. saperahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553004590976656655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-7418598749525186382013-03-05T13:55:54.474+05:302013-03-05T13:55:54.474+05:30yeah I actually agree with you. I was doing a bit ...yeah I actually agree with you. I was doing a bit of roleplay by quoting that piece (mainly to needle shrikanth). I did suspect that that analysis was a bit simplistic. Surely humans contain multitudes?, etc.. <br /><br />Although having said that, I did want to run that observation by you, since I haven't actually seen the movie. saperahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553004590976656655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-6455692277915492592013-03-05T13:40:40.672+05:302013-03-05T13:40:40.672+05:30Neither critics nor audiences (at the premiere, I ...<i>Neither critics nor audiences (at the premiere, I mean) found anything off-sync about how any Muslim within reach must pay for what was done to Omi’s parents by a specific group of people...</i><br /><br />Sorry Sapera, but I think this is a serious misrepresentation/simplification of the way in which many people have responded to the film. Speaking for myself (and for the people I know who have liked the film), no one is suggesting that the killing of innocents from either community is justified, and I don't agree at all that the film itself condones the attack on the Muslims. But if the only way for you to feel comfortable with a filmic depiction of such real-life incidents is to disallow even the possibility of a basically likable/sympathetic character being so clouded by rage that he - temporarily - loses his moral compass (something that, yes, can happen to any of us), then you're probably better off watching simplistic agitprop.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-63173894070902863202013-03-05T13:21:16.905+05:302013-03-05T13:21:16.905+05:30I never thought this day would come, but I find my...I never thought this day would come, but I find myself in agreement with shrikanth. I quote from the person who writes on the anonandon blog: <br /><br />[Right. Some Muslims killed my parents, ergo I will kill many other Muslims — that’s complexity for you.<br /><br />I can’t get over the fact that Omi’s horribly warped thinking didn’t bother anybody. Neither critics nor audiences (at the premiere, I mean) found anything off-sync about how any Muslim within reach must pay for what was done to Omi’s parents by a specific group of people. It seems justified to Omi and everyone else that a colony of innocent Muslims must die because some other Muslims (who have no connection beyond the nominal yoke of Islam to those being attacked) torched a train. We are expected to forgive Omi his urge to kill Muslims because some violent extremists killed his parents. (By which logic, if someone’s parents die in a car accident, then it’s justified for the child to go out and kill any driver s/he can lay his hands on.) The fact that Omi knows Ali’s father doesn’t make him pause. The fact that his dearest friend Ishaan is begging him to stop doesn’t matter.] <br /><br />http://anonandon.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/capiche-no/<br /><br />oh em gee, you're more of a "liberal" than you think shrikanth. oh em gee. saperahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553004590976656655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-50285717158919345122013-03-05T12:00:41.102+05:302013-03-05T12:00:41.102+05:30Talking of the Hostile media effect, I am reminded...Talking of the Hostile media effect, I am reminded of numerous Hollywood films that have been a victim of this bias.<br /><br />For eg: Liberals still cringe at very fine John Ford films like <i>The Searchers</i> for instance saying that it is racist, just because the lead character (from a 19th cen milieu) happens to be slightly prejudiced. The same commentators have no issues with mediocre Stanley Kramer films that are overtly political and often condescending.<br /><br />The other day I stumbled upon a televisation of the Holmes novel - <i>The Sign of Four</i> starring Jeremy Brett. Several youtube commentators were labeling it "racist" just because it features a demented Indian tribal character!<br /><br />Ofcourse it is not just the left that is overly sensitive. Churchill deemed <i>Colonel Blimp</i> to be pro-German! A ridiculous jibe about a movie that is as English as it can get.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-28552061543248905812013-03-05T11:47:42.933+05:302013-03-05T11:47:42.933+05:30Jabberwock: Thats true but the suspense regarding ...Jabberwock: Thats true but the suspense regarding Ishaan's fate was held only for few seconds.<br /><br />I was kind of underwhelmed by the film because it tried to give equal importance to their growth of business and their friendship and as a result ended diluting the impact of the movie.<br />When the movie and the flashback started I thought the movie was about three friends chasing their dream.<br /><br />vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15673320399701558414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-13507934128043773532013-03-05T11:29:39.144+05:302013-03-05T11:29:39.144+05:30V: yes, that bit was a little cheesy alright. Thou...V: yes, that bit was a little cheesy alright. Though naming the little boy Ishaan also facilitated the trick of misdirecting the viewer at the beginning of the film, when Govind and Omi are in the car together and one of them asks how Ishaan is doing.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-24935144933629059862013-03-05T11:25:10.831+05:302013-03-05T11:25:10.831+05:30Didn't anyone find the ending of the movie a b...Didn't anyone find the ending of the movie a bit cheezy? Govind naming his son after Ishaan and then Ishaan appearing the horizon and smiling at them...<br /><br />Anyone?!vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15673320399701558414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-15856604881809665882013-03-05T10:57:47.153+05:302013-03-05T10:57:47.153+05:30There's absolutely no excuse for aiding, abett...<i>There's absolutely no excuse for aiding, abetting or even implicitly condoning crime. Especially unprovoked crime on innocent third parties. Period.</i><br /><br />No issue with this. Just in case it needed to be clarified.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.com