tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post2817900906939271791..comments2024-03-27T14:57:37.031+05:30Comments on Jabberwock: Chaar Rahein - K A Abbas at the junction between tradition and progressJabberwockhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-80866030762688768062017-05-29T03:27:52.919+05:302017-05-29T03:27:52.919+05:30By the way, on a separate note, here's a robus...By the way, on a separate note, here's a robust defence of monarchy by that arch-conservative Jerry Rao<br /><br />https://swarajyamag.com/politics/bastar-proposing-a-radical-solutionshrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-4355303180753005732017-05-28T18:31:44.128+05:302017-05-28T18:31:44.128+05:30Well in a sense, I am a liberal too. A classical l...Well in a sense, I am a liberal too. A classical liberal (people who are called conservatives today, in the West).<br /><br />I am scoffing at leftists like KA Abbas who are anything but liberal. Who got their inspiration from highly illiberal people like Marx and Lenin!<br /><br />My heroes are Hume, Smith, Burke. True liberals, each one of them. Not the enemies of liberalism like Marx or Engels.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-87749433857308034572017-05-28T07:11:54.886+05:302017-05-28T07:11:54.886+05:30Shrikanth: criticizing Nehru or scoffing at "...Shrikanth: criticizing Nehru or scoffing at "liberals"? No problem. But this:<br /><br /><i>Jai is neither a deity nor a royal figure</i><br /><br />UnacceptableJabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-79627011155634182622017-05-28T05:17:02.633+05:302017-05-28T05:17:02.633+05:30"i had Liked Your Blog & way Of Writing&q..."i had Liked Your Blog & way Of Writing"<br /><br />You had liked Jai's blog, but you no longer like it?<br /><br />"Please Share More Information in Your Blog"<br /><br />About what? Or going by the capitalized words, do you mean to say jai needs to share something called "More Information"? Is that a proper noun? the name of a movie or something? I did google. Not showing up.<br /><br />"Your Blog"<br /><br />"your blog" will do. Don't capitalize "Your". Jai is neither a deity nor a royal figure. And from what I know of him, he has strong egalitarian and atheistic impulses and disapproves of both religion and nobility.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-89963121303488158752017-05-27T20:25:51.002+05:302017-05-27T20:25:51.002+05:30"cleansing has happened a lot basis caste. Ca..."cleansing has happened a lot basis caste. Caste is the problem in India." Really ? When did this happen ? Which caste *cleansed* which other caste ? escaping2nowherehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16926522515234700151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-69974150442104167092017-05-27T19:43:32.642+05:302017-05-27T19:43:32.642+05:30it was in 1967 in "Loving vs Virginia" c...it was in 1967 in "Loving vs Virginia" case that the US Supreme court invalidated laws against inter racial marriages. The story of Richard Loving ( White man ) & Mildred Loving ( Black woman )has been turned into Hollywood movie 3 times.escaping2nowherehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16926522515234700151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-49548055828326940732017-05-27T19:01:43.455+05:302017-05-27T19:01:43.455+05:30Amar: Thanks!!! Nice and Awesome Comment. Best Com...Amar: Thanks!!! Nice and Awesome Comment. Best Comment so far on This Thread.Jabberwockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10210195396120573794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-56038572473101986692017-05-27T19:01:11.500+05:302017-05-27T19:01:11.500+05:30Nice blog !!! Awesome posts & information, i h...Nice blog !!! Awesome posts & information, i had Liked Your Blog & way Of Writing The Posts In Your website,Please Share More Information in Your Blog,Keep Going On And All The Bestamarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-41307272501816006652017-05-27T17:48:36.712+05:302017-05-27T17:48:36.712+05:30Hmm. Didn't know of it. Terrible thing.Hmm. Didn't know of it. Terrible thing. Pessimist Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06057153008708242962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-51074475348941567942017-05-27T17:33:13.393+05:302017-05-27T17:33:13.393+05:30Well. Demographic problem is also a very real prob...Well. Demographic problem is also a very real problem even in Western EUropean countries - which are hardly "traditional" or "rooted", in the same sense as Japan is. So one needn't bring that up.<br /><br />Maybe women are "worse" off. But perhaps families are better off? Divorce rates are lower than the west? Fewer single mothers? Fewer social stresses. Less of a drug epidemic? How do you weigh the balance?shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-2493672121652616232017-05-27T17:29:10.839+05:302017-05-27T17:29:10.839+05:30I am not even saying that we must aspire to be lik...I am not even saying that we must aspire to be like Japan. <br /><br />All I am saying is - these are value judgments. Let's not try to discuss these things in "objective" terms and suggest that there is a grand "tradition-modernity" tradeoff. There is no such tradeoff, if you study history closely enough. If anything one sees that homogeneous countries with a strong sustained tradition and lack of diversity / internal fissures tend to hold up better.<br /><br />Does that mean I advocate ethnic cleansing? Ofcourse not. ALl I am saying is - the call for diversity can be a liberal ideal. Which is fine. BUt let's not make it a universal ideal with some objective "benefits".<br /><br />It's OK to eat chocolate, without having to justify it by making a case for its health benefits!shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-74626280374610295392017-05-27T17:22:22.945+05:302017-05-27T17:22:22.945+05:30Well talking of texts, American law forbade marria...Well talking of texts, American law forbade marriage of a white woman and a black man (and vice versa) in half of its states even as late as 1950shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-72002124819296978862017-05-27T17:18:42.446+05:302017-05-27T17:18:42.446+05:30You are arguing with s strawman here.
I ain't...You are arguing with s strawman here.<br /><br />I ain't calling for the "undermining" of minorities in any of my comments. My original comments have absolutely nothing to do with minorities! I never ever mentioned them. Why ascribe that to me? Nor am I calling for India to become a Hindu Pakistan.<br /><br />I brought up Japan because you made the point (unrelated to my comments) that majoritarian politics hurts countries. I am not either for or against majoritarian politics. I find the term very vague. But that assertion of yours is not borne out by reality. Japan is a very homogeneous, majoritarian country. Not because nature has rendered it so. But because it has chosen to remain homogeneous. It has resisted immigration throughout its history and chosen to retain a racial identity for its nation. Not saying it's good or bad. But it has done OK.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-14688667877621943032017-05-27T16:43:11.841+05:302017-05-27T16:43:11.841+05:30//Even the most tribal adivasis have not turned ex...//Even the most tribal adivasis have not turned extinct in India but allowed to live on in their primitive ways.// <br />Again, I don't 100% disagree with you, but you are too lenient on Indian reality. Adivasis are allowed to live in many cases because perhaps they are not worth the trouble. What exactly is happening in mineral belt of India? Indian society never had the kind of industrial revolution the West and many parts of Asia had. They didn't have resources or just a drive to annihilate Adivasis like the West has. I agree that Hindu society and faith has allowed more various kinds of people to assimilate, but then I disagree with the way you put it Pessimist Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06057153008708242962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-2531059994593469042017-05-27T16:38:17.315+05:302017-05-27T16:38:17.315+05:30//And there is no Indian text (religious or secula...//And there is no Indian text (religious or secular) that discourages marriage with dark-skinned people.//<br /><br />Is there such texts in any other country or religion, which clearly says one shouldnt marry dark skinned people? I am a Punjabi. In my family, I was the most dark-skinned. How often I heard from people that he is not fair. I have known so many people, whose self-esteem takes a huge hit, as wheatish complexioned neighbours and family members call them 'kallu'. I am not 100% disagreeing with you, Shrikanth on any point you mentioned, but you make it sound, as if having a dark-complexion does not "fundamentally" change lives. It does fundamentally change lives in India. Although I get your point that bias is not as system driven in India as in other countries, but the system is weak itself in this country. Pessimist Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06057153008708242962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-23006511905179966192017-05-27T15:35:53.204+05:302017-05-27T15:35:53.204+05:30How is Japan's ethnic homogeneity relevant? In...How is Japan's ethnic homogeneity relevant? India is not ethnically, linguistically, culturally or religiously homogenous and nor should it aspire to be. Japan's prosperity was more fundamentally an outcome of the economic policies it adopted which were at the level of conception (if not at the level of execution) comparable to India's.<br /><br />Pakistan arguably started off better resourced and at a slightly better vantage point than India. It might also interest you to know that in its period of relative prosperity Pakistan also had a series of five year plans. The 90's, which you identify as a period of decline, were marked by rapid privatisation of State Industries and deregulation in Pakistan. More fundamentally the mess it is in now, can be ascribed to deeply ill-liberal social policies, majoritarian religious chauvinism, and the consistent undermining of minorities. It's break with East-Bengal was also partially a product of attempts to homogenise it, through the imposition of an alien language and culture. silverambrosiahttp://www.silverambrosia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-82386525221021017872017-05-27T04:38:41.431+05:302017-05-27T04:38:41.431+05:30" don't think engaging in purely majorita..." don't think engaging in purely majoritarian politics is healthy or wise or good"<br /><br />Japan appears to have ignored this liberal dictum. It remains 99% Japanese. A highly homogenous country with no minorities. Highly resistant to immigration. Highly conscious of its history and its traditions.<br /><br />It is one of the richest countries on the planet. I don't see a tradition-modernity tradeoff there. Rejection of cosmopolitanism hasn't hurt Japan.shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-14870964661124404952017-05-27T00:31:37.890+05:302017-05-27T00:31:37.890+05:30"You are really reaching wrong conclusions ba..."You are really reaching wrong conclusions basis people not caring as much for physical features. "<br /><br />I never said they don't care. And I believe they SHOULD care. Would you like to marry someone without having seen her? What you are saying defies both my sense and sensibility. How on earth can you not care for the physical features of the person you'll have kids with?<br /><br />What I am saying is - Even villagers in UP are less particular about complexion while picking spouses than say Hyde Park Londoners or Upper West Side Manhattan dwellers. Fact. Look around old chap. What I am saying is too obvious to be missed.<br />shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-858440603298702212017-05-27T00:21:20.663+05:302017-05-27T00:21:20.663+05:30"Near Independence, many learned Internationa..."Near Independence, many learned International observers thought Pakistan had been much smarter about these things; religiously homogenous, undemocratic, and certainly not socialist (none of the massive and much needed land-reform which took place in India under Nehru's tenure, happened there"<br /><br />For your information, Pakistan was a bigger economic success story than India right uptil the early 90s. Even as late as the 80s, Pakistan per-capita income was higher than that of India.<br /><br />So Nehruvian policies did not result in better economic performance (definitely not, if Pakistan is your benchmark).shrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-9666287067966682362017-05-27T00:15:13.777+05:302017-05-27T00:15:13.777+05:30I don't think it is very healthy either to ins...I don't think it is very healthy either to institute a culture that looks down at the majority and its ways with contempt and derisionshrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-35181314300421602432017-05-26T23:53:18.144+05:302017-05-26T23:53:18.144+05:30Caste is evidence of absence of ethnic cleansing. ...Caste is evidence of absence of ethnic cleansing. Even the most tribal adivasis have not turned extinct in India but allowed to live on in their primitive ways.<br /><br />Coutries without caste are either homogenous to begin with or rendered homogenous through either forced assimilation or ethnic cleansing. Read European history for thisshrikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03898755392584822638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-9521482518614410272017-05-26T21:36:04.328+05:302017-05-26T21:36:04.328+05:30In the worst case the preference for fairness is a...In the worst case the preference for fairness is a weak (greater than or equal to dark ) rather than strict (always greater than dark ) preference. escaping2nowherehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16926522515234700151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-52625263756912743982017-05-26T19:43:39.452+05:302017-05-26T19:43:39.452+05:30"They all want fair daughter-in-law, doctor d... "They all want fair daughter-in-law, doctor daughter in law for a doctor son, bureaucrat girl's father for a diplomat boy's father". And we all want to be rich and educated. Does that prove we have a bias against poor and uneducated people ? Do not confuse individual preferences with values of a society.irrespective of what individuals / families may wish for (Even that is at a gut feel level, no data really), The hard fact is that a large no. of marriages between people with different colors happen and neither society nor law has anything against such alliances and fair, wheatish, dark all kinds of people interact with each other without any issues. On the other hand in "progressive" societies of Europe and US,marriages between people of different colors are still very rare despite the moral superiority they might claim on this issue.escaping2nowherehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16926522515234700151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-53760183456207953162017-05-26T19:32:13.467+05:302017-05-26T19:32:13.467+05:30Also if it wasn't already clear I don't th...Also if it wasn't already clear I don't think engaging in purely majoritarian politics is healthy or wise or good. It's about striking the right balance. Nehru himself was no extreme leftist. He was very much middle of the road. silverambrosiahttp://www.silverambrosia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204542.post-79501730798517747382017-05-26T18:52:29.933+05:302017-05-26T18:52:29.933+05:30//The West has started on the rhetoric of multi-cu...//The West has started on the rhetoric of multi-culturalism and multi-racial coexistence in the past 50 years or so.// It's not merely a rhetoric. Even the worst critics of liberal left will agree that liberal left did change a lot of things for good, the point is their rhetoric is irrelevant today. But, I agree that the west has marched ahead a lot in the last 70 years or so, since world war 2. <br />//the more powerful groups never resorted to ethnic cleansing to get rid of diversity// - cleansing has happened a lot basis caste. Caste is the problem in India. Pessimist Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06057153008708242962noreply@blogger.com